Fascist Patch for Civ3

Good news! Steven Strayer, the creator of the popular Fascist Patch for Civ2, has released a Fascists patch for Civ3 a few days ago. The patch can be downloaded at the Fascist Modpack homepage:


2.2 Update now available
Okay, as of 20 April 2002, release 2.2 of the Fascist Patch is out with full support of the official 1.21f version of Civ3.


http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/sgt_stryker/homepage.htm

Sorry, but I dont feel good about this patch. I visited the website and dont like what I saw (especially the big picture of Hitler).

I know it's a patch for a game but honestly, I will never dowload it and install it. It really makes me uneasy. To me this patch seems to glorify fascism through the game "improvements" it will allows gamers.

I'm not too sure about the message of this patch nor the intentions of its author but I honestly dont think it is a good idea.

I believe this patch should be removed from this great site. It gives a horrible image and aura.

*feeling sick*

I was interested in the patch -- I vaguely remember the fascist patch for Civ2 -- but opening the web page really disturbed me. It gives you the feeling the mod was designed by a white supremacy group, to spread their message. That may not be the case, but I for one have been put off already.

I don't mind fascism as a government for the game, nor in it bringing military benefits, but as the previous poster mentioned, this site seemed to celebrate it beyond the scope of a game mod. Also, I would imagine that fascism would come at some greater cost than are created by the mod, such as a lot of unhappy people, and probably--if it were possible--population decreases in all cities. Something to reflect the horrors of this form of government.

Armor
:rocket:

Actually, Fascist governments were typified by fierce loyalty by the people, and not unhappiness at all. This was a result of careful manipulation and persecution of minority groups. It would be more representative if this form of government eliminated foreign populations in all cities for example, and changed a portion of them into barbarians (partisans).

You can't ignore the historical significannce of Fascism, no matter how distasteful it was. Nuclear weapons are considered an abomination by many, but they are in the game.

I think it says a lot about you that you don't consider minority groups to be part of "the people." Do you think German and Italian Jews weren't generally long standing citizens of those countries? Or do you think they were "fiercely loyal" to their fascist governments?

Using words like typified does not make you an expert on this subject -- the successes and failures fascist regimes are the subject of ongoing academic debate, and are not made clear by the vulgar reductionism you employ. "The people" are not a monolithic entity that feels one way or the other, neither within nor between ethnic groups let alone the many other social cleavages that divide even the simplest human populations. Fascist regimes often employed secret police forces and systems of paid neighborhood-level informants (and rewards for citizens who turned in 'traitors') to keep their populations in line; wheras many (though certainly not all) party members may have been loyal, "the people" often kept their opinions to themselves for fear of 'disappearing' if they didn't.

Although fascism, as a form of government, is historically insignificant when compared with ancient forms such as monarchy or republic, I don't think anyone here is denying its role in history. As a choice of government for the game, I think it's a good idea if it's done correctly. But I think the difference between us is that we aren't celebrating fascism, and Hitler, as the web page for this mod appears to do.

Armor

I agree with armor.

I suspect the author of the mod to be a fascist himself. First who would quickly create a fascist mod? Ok, it could be an innocent gamer, or historic buff, but not likely. To me, it is an hitler wannabee who would want to gleefuly relive this part of history playing civ as hitler. Another purpose would be to "democratize" the fascisme "idea", in other word spread their hatred buy having people play as "hitler" and think "this rules, my population is in check, I can conquer the world"

Look at the web site! the first think you see is a big picture of hitler doing the nazi salute on a red background.

Although the author tried to remain neutral in his description of fascism he sure doesnt say it was an horrible part of history (unless I missed some pages but yuck I dont want to return to this web site to check).

Another thing suspect is that there is barely any downwards for selecting fascism in Civ3 (if you install the mod of this guy.)

To me it is suspect. Anyway the guy is entitled to his beliefs whatever they are but I still think it is digusting to promote this mod on this site the way it was done. I also condamn the way the moderator/immortal introduced this mod by saying "good news!" Now ban me if you want or whatever but I said what I thought and feel better.

It is disgusting to me. Now I hope that Armor and I are not the only one to think so. Seeing so little reaction from people is saddening and scarring me.

First of all, he didnt rush that much to make it since it has existed for many years for civ 2...

Second of all, it makes me sick that people prefer to be politically correct instead of historically correct.. And the govenment type facism is not a favoured government type... Its quite similar to fundamentalism (wich has been removed)..

I agree that the pic of Hitler can be disturbing, though, but I dont belive that the author of the mod is a fascist himself.. Just someone trying to provoke politically correct people

BTW I am talking about the mod for civ 2 since I dont own civ 3 yet....

The author is kind enough to post a warning about the content of the site on his main page:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/sgt_stryker/homepage.htm

WARNING

You are about to enter the Civilization Fascist-Mod Site (Civilization II & III). This website focuses on adding the government type of Fascism to a GAME that covers important milestones and events in the history of man. Due to political correctness, Microprose (the makers of the game) chose to ignore the impact the rise of Fascism had on the 20th century. How can one have good without evil? This site is geared towards those individuals who care less about political correctness, and more about the inclusion of all history, good or bad. This website not only offers the Fascist Patch, but also contains images, sights and sounds from the Third Reich and other related fascist regimes. This is NOT a pro-fascist site, anymore than watching a documentary is, nor does the site promote any such beliefs. There are no images of death, and no insults or slurs... but if the mere sight of a swastika or Hitler is illegal in YOUR country, offends you, or inspires you to write flaming e-mails that tell everyone else we must obide by your personal views of right and wrong (which is kind-of a fascist outlook itself isn't it?), please go elsewhere and flee now to someplace safe!


NOTE:
This page and it's linked sites and files relating to fascism are not intended to be taken as the views or thoughts of the author...

"I believe that our most important mission is to make past history known correctly, to reflect on what should be reflected, to forget the hatred, to cooperate for man's happiness and the maintenance of the earth, and to teach these matters to the children of the next generation"

Click to expand...

And you are given a chance to not enter the page if you feel uneasy about it.

Originally posted by Cilpot
First of all, he didnt rush that much to make it since it has existed for many years for civ 2...

Click to expand...

Maybe he also rushed to make the "popular" fascism civ2 patch just as he probably will for civ4

Second of all, it makes me sick that people prefer to be politically correct instead of historically correct..

Click to expand...

What about spiritually correct? Even if it's just a game I couldnt play a fascist governement. Altough I admit wouldnt have much problem nuking a city playing Civ. But for hitler, BIG shivers

just someone trying to provoke politically correct people

Click to expand...

Let's hope so

This mod is a reflection of real life. Fascists where a form of government in the 20th century. If we are suppose to take out any type of government that we don’t like, communism should not be in the game. They killed more people than the fascists. I do not approve what the Nazi/Fascists did during the war. Several of my family died during it, and the others where fighting them. But they are a part of history, and should be included in the game. If you don’t like it, DON’T INSTALL THE MOD, but I will.
Think about a WWII scenario without Nazi/Fascist. What sort of government should Germany have?
Democracy ??. The Nazi where elected to power, but that wood not give the German people the fanatic ability to fight even when the war was lost. If you look at some of the documentary which has been made, normal people still believed in 1945 that Germany was going to Win the war. The propaganda ministry was a great and powerful, but how should they make Germany still believe that they was going to Win the war, and people still believed in him even if they heard the artillery from the allies. If the people was not fanatics about there leaders, how else than with a mod that makes that possible.

I agree. The mod is not only in bad taste but also poorly models a historically insignificant form of government.

I would leave the patch here however, for people to download and try. Go ahead and play it. Think of yourself as being the kind of person who would lead a nation in that way. When you get the sickened feeling in your stomach you know you are human. Then delete the patch and be glad that men who would play it gleefully are little more than mice in the pipes or long ago dead and correctly vilified.

Remember, for to forget is to relive.
Viridovix

I was just sitting here reading through the threads, and actually registered specifically to reply to this post. Not to start out on a bad foot, I mean, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but this thread is ridiculous.

I cannot believe that the same players who think nothing of bombarding cities full of innocent citizens, pummelling down a civilization with many important cultural ideas to add to the world by slaughtering all their peoples, and even grinning when you fly a nuclear weapon of mass destruction into a rivals city, wreaking unheard of agony on its peoples for decades to come, yet you protest a patch that adds facism to the list of optional governments?

The truth of the matter is, Civilization is a game that allows us to have and feel a mock power over the world, and therefore acts as a great outlet for these pent up emotions. IF this game was real life, I wouldn't be using ANY of the military actions available! And of course I wouldn't choose Fascism as my government, nor despotism or communism or even monarchy! The author of the patch clearly states he does not support fascism or totalitarianism in any aspect. The truth of the matter is when I'm bent on world domination in civ, I usually choose communism, because of its great ability to uphold a massive, widespread army. Does this mean I support communism in the real world? No! IT'S A GAME! ITS A GAME! IT'S A GAME! A HISTORICAL SIMULATION ON A COMPUTER! PLASTICS AND METALS FORGED TOGETHER IN A BOX AND SOLD BY MAJOR, CAPITALIST CORPORATIONS!

Come on people... sorry to get so firey, and I do not wish to offend (I don't flame, I think its useless) but please, lay off the author of this patch and the people who wish to use it. In the definition set out in this thread, we're all just as guilty of human atrocities in retrospect to game play. In despotism you kill citizens in order to hurry production! Whats worse than that?

To conclude, there exist several different ways to win at civ 3. And I know not all the nay sayers of the fascism patch always strive for the world peacemaker ending (though that is a great addition to the game, and I look forward to giving it a shot).

So shame on all of you. Please reconsider your thinking.

And Hi everybody... I look forward to getting to know all of you.

Further

Its hard to seperate the fact that people who play CIV may have no real concept of history.

To call Fascism "historicaly insignifigant" would be saying that WWII had no real affect on the 20th century. If you wanna look at it in this light, communism is almost as "historically insignifigant" because it really only lasted 1/2 a century, but we still have it.

For all of you who have had your tiny little minds crafted by "after school specials" and "Lifetime specials" I have some historical notes for you.

Attrocities you just didnt know about (or you werernt concerned about because it didnt happen to a US ally) and government types that go along with it.


Time Period Killed Government Responsible
250AD 300,000+ Roman Republic
3rd Punic War
Destruction of Carthage
1200-1400AD 2M+ English Monarchy
Crusades
African Slave Trade
1600AD 1M+ Theocracy, Inquisition
1775-1850 30M+ Democracy, USA
Western Imperialist
Expansion,
Native American Genocide
First documented use of
bio-warfare.
1935 25M+ German, Facism.
Jewish/Polish/Russian
Massacres
1950 10M+ USSR, Communism
Stalinization of Russia
1960-1990 5M+ Iraq, Despotism
Ethnic Cleansing of Kurdish

So pick your "innocent" government.

On the Fascist note, the Italians where fascist but committed no genocide. There are governments today (Isreal) that very closely resemble fascism ironicaly enough, but we dont call them fascisms, we call them Socialist-Democracies.

ironfang

Since my paint program doesn't support .pcx format, I can't customize any civ advance icons.

I was wondering if someone would care to make and post an icon of the fasces, both small and large, to replace the swastika, because that icon is representative of only German fascism, but I'm assuming other civs will use it from time to time, too.

For my two cents, Fascism is a must for civ. If you loathe it so much, make it your duty to rid other civs of it or something.

Go Ironfang!

Well, here's my .02 on this subject. Overall, I think the Fascist Patch website ought to tell you something about how it will play in the game, and how truly legitimate it may or may not be.

First of all, I need to say that I have no inherent opposition to the recongition of fascism/totalitarianism as a form of government in Civ III. Since these forms of government figured prominently in the 20th Century, for better or for worse, the creators of Civ III should recognize it.

My concern comes from the Fascist Patch website, which seems mildly to glorify fascism as a form of government, while giving only a perfunctory mention of its negative effects. When describing the effect of the patch itself, it seems to describe the benefits of fascism to a Civ III player, without too much downside. This leads me to conclude that the patch is probably unrealistically imbalanced. The Civ forms of government are all about balance. For each form of government, you get benefits, but give some up as well. The only downside to the fascist patch which is mentioned on the website is that conquered cities encounter more resisters. Are there any other downsides?

The website also mentions that fascism borrows from other forms of government, including governments which allow capitalism. You need to ask, playing this patch, whether the production level under fascism would be the same as a republic or democracy? To put the productivity of a fascist form of government on a par equal to a democratized industrial state, over the long run, would be historically untrue. It was not our own level of our fanaticism, or our belief in democratic ideals which ultimately defeated the Nazis. It was the fact that our nation, when mobilized for war, could outproduce all three Axis nations put together, even before daylight bombing. Really, World War II was over before it even started. Does the fascist patch recognize this?

The Fascist Patch website also casually mentions that it rules through organized violence, an implicit recognition that fascism employs terror tactics to keep its people in line and/or engages in brutal repression of dissent. Obviously, this must come at a price to such a society. Over time, the level of unhappiness must grow. Does the Fascist Patch recognize this?

Finally, let's not ingore the fact that fascism suppresses creativity, and implicitly, cultural development. Does the Fascist Patch allow for a reduced level of cultural influence? Over the long run, would Nazi Germany have stayed on par with our technological advances when they didn't concern military matters? And even when it comes to military developments, think about why Albert Einstein fled Germany and served America, and the implications of that.

To sum it up, if you are interested in playing a fascist patch, I would wait until a better source comes along. To me, the Civilization forms of government are all about balance, and you have to question the objectivity of a website that has a big obnoxious picture of Hitler at the top.

Again, my .02.

Better said Giorgicus, thanks.

If you want to see how fascism in this mod compares to the other government types, the solution is to download it and use the editor to compare them, not to conjecture on theory.

I just worked on the Fundamentalism mod, so I've been studying the balance between government types. And I'm concerned about the balance of Fascism for a few reasons, which I'll mention here.

First, the obvious benefits of fascism in this mod. Corruption is low in fascism here, on a level comparable to Republic. Only Democracy has a better corruption level. Thing is, Republic and Democracy *should* have good corruption levels, because they are peacetime governments. What they make in less corruption they spend because they don't get free supported military units. Fascism gets a good corruption level here *and* free supported military units, meaning a good influx of cash. This is a definite advantage.

Second, assimilation. For those that don't know, a higher assimilation rating means that those pesky foreigners in conquered cities will go away faster. Communism and Democracy both have high assimilation ratings, while the others have lower ones. Fascism, in this mod, is on par with Communism and Democracy. This is another advantage. And one I'm not sure I agree with, since a government based on national superiority should have a tough time integrating foreigners. We especially know that Nazi Germany didn't exactly welcome foreigners.

Fascism in this mod also receives the Standard Trade Bonus, a commerce bonus received only by Democracy and Republic. Meaning it not only gets extra cash from the low corruption levels and unit support, but also from increased trade! This seems to make it the government to choose if you want wads of money, which I don't agree with.

And unlike the other money-making government types (Republic and Democracy), Fascism suffers no war weariness. The people don't mind if you wage war endlessly.

Then there are two more things to mention. The immunity to "Steal Technology" Espionage actions and the 10 Resistance Rating to Communism. The fact that your technology can not be stolen in Fascism is a definite plus (and an unwarranted one, I think). Also, the resistance rating against Communism is twice as high as the previously highest resistance rating in the game.

For those reasons, I think the Fascism mod is a bit unbalanced. Here's how I would balance it:

1) Corruption Level goes up to "Problematic." This puts it on par with Monarchy; more corrupt than Democracy or Republic, but less corrupt than Despotism or Communism.

2) Assimilation Chance goes down to 2%. This reflects the difficult that a highly Nationalistic government has with foreigners. This is worse than Democracy or Communism, on par with Republic and Monarchy, and better than Despotism.

3) No Steal Technology Immunity. Fascist technology can be stolen just like any others.

4) Modified Resistance Ratings. Fascists are less resistant to Despotism or Monarchy governments, because they are similar in outlook to extreme nationalism. They are no more or less resistant to Democratic or Republican conquerers. They are more resistant to Anarchy and Communism, but at a rating of 5 (on par with other resistant governments), not at the previous level of 10.

How does this match up? In the rules of the game, Fascism becomes a sort of modern Monarchy (with everyone putting their belief in a nation, not a king). Corruption and Unit Support on equal to Monarchy, but Fascism can use more units as Military Police to enforce happiness. Also unlike Monarchy, Fascism allows the Standard Trade Bonus. This is balanced out by the fact that you must be much further along in scientific development to use Fascism.

If you want to use this modified form of Fascism I just described, download the mod below instead of the other mod. It is a slightly altered version of Steven Strayer's mod with the changes I mention here.

Originally posted by Further
I cannot believe that the same players who think nothing of bombarding cities full of innocent citizens, ..., yet you protest a patch that adds facism to the list of optional governments?

Click to expand...

I asked myself the same question and I think I nailed the answer. I like to immerse myself in games (whether you want it or not, we pretty much all do it although I know "it is just a game!"). So nuking some computers cities and inhabitants isnt a big deal because they are not flesh and bones. They are computer 0s and 1s, pixels and numbers. No big deal. NOW if the puter attack MY cities it's different because they ARE my inhabitants, little humans like me and I'm their king. I feel like they are real.

That is also why I wont play fascism because in Civ I am the leader, and I dont want to portray myself as Hitler. It's like a RPG, sorry but I dont see myself as Hitler. I want to play my game like I would if I were a real leader (mostly culture and science achievement). Again, in this game I know I'm fighting computers that is why I have no probs exterminating them (just like I loved to do in this old commodore 64 game called "the seven cities of gold". It was like civ. Man, did I loved entering villages, killing little people because they would die bursting, making a little "plop" sound, just like when you chew gum and bust bubbles) and they would get quickly excited surrounding you and attacking you while you were either trying to escape, or reach their leader