Some comments on submarines

I noticed a few things about submarines that aren't really bugs, but definately could improve their play value. The first things are ones that I see *could* be done in civ3 without too much work (hopefully).


1) Subs should be immune to defensive bombardment.
A sub attack is a surprise, and therefore other units in the stack shouldn't get a shot at the attacking sub.

This could be changed to subs being immune to defensive bombardment by units that cannot see a sub, ie units without sonar should not be able to defensively bombard a submarine.

It is always strange watching a battleship...a unit that can't see a sub, defensively bombard when you attack a transport.

2) Subs should get one free shot on attack
Again, going back to the surpise factor, a sub should get to fire once before the defender has a chance to retaliate. One round of combat with the defender unable to respond. This makes subs valuable attackers for naval units that are already damaged. This also would help overcome the 8 attack factor of subs.


The following are things that might be more difficult to implement:


3) Subs should have hidden nationality when facing any unit without sonar
Naval units without sonar can't see a sub until that unit is attacked. If a sub can't be spotted until attack, it is reasonable that the nationality would be hidden. Please note that I am not arguing for overall hidden nationality for submarines. If a unit has sonar, they can spot its nationality.

4) Nuclear subs should be split into two units: Balistic Missile Submarine and Nuclear Attack Submarine
Balistic Missile Subs should be expensive in sheilds, and be able to carry both Tacticle Nukes and Cruise Missiles. I think 4 is a good number (combination of the two types). Balistic Missile Subs should be slower, perhaps even slower than non-nuclear submarines. They would have limited attack power, and ideally could only be spotted by advanced naval units.

Nuclear Attack Submarines should be fast, have strong attack, and unable to carry missiles. They should havea no problem spotting balistic missile submarines.

Any thoughts?

These are probably the only ideas I've heard out here that are really good ones. I'm not to crazy about people who suggest things that would change a strategic game like civ into a tactical one. Which these ideas don't. They actually make alot of sense. You could also add to your list that ships should be able to float right over a sub unless the ship has sonar and see's it and wants to attack said sub. It currently forces a sometimes friendly AI into declaring war on you because they ran into one of your subs.

The only reason I didn't put the ships floating over a sub in my list is that reading other's comments makes me think that would require a fundamental change in game mechanics...which might not be possible in civ3.

I like these ideas, but the sub bug is top priority IMHO.

Starrider: Godd ideas... Now go over to the Civ 4 ideas sub forum and post them there!

Originally posted by starrider
The only reason I didn't put the ships floating over a sub in my list is that reading other's comments makes me think that would require a fundamental change in game mechanics...which might not be possible in civ3.

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yes but silly me just thinks it wouldn't be that hard to program in, the code is already there to go through your own units so use the same code with alot of if statements... If=invisible, IF=Sub.. etc etc

Great ideas !
I rarely build subs in any of my games due to that bug that never gets fixed.

Me too. Their one of my favorite naval units too...


FIX THE FREAKING B U G ! ! ! ! !

Great ideas. Right now, as others already pointed out, the sub bug makes them unbearable. I hide my subs beneath destroyers to prevent the breakout of wars I do not want, stupid, eh? <g>

I just make subs hidden nationality. It's not a hugely erroneous way of doing things, at least in the WW1/2 era, and it neatly disarms the bug.

I'm not sure I agree with #1 since in real life (at least with early subs) any torpedo attack could easily result in a counter attack.
The idea #2 I think is right on target.
I agree, Subs definitely need improving.
I've done some tweaks in the editor, but one needs to be careful not to give the AI an unbalanced advantage or you could find that all the AI civs will start cranking out large numbers of subs which will roam invisibly about the ocean sinking your fleets.
Something to contemplate.
I know I'm going to give your ideas more thought.

Originally posted by starrider
I noticed a few things about submarines that aren't really bugs, but definately could improve their play value. The first things are ones that I see *could* be done in civ3 without too much work (hopefully).


1) Subs should be immune to defensive bombardment.
A sub attack is a surprise, and therefore other units in the stack shouldn't get a shot at the attacking sub.

This could be changed to subs being immune to defensive bombardment by units that cannot see a sub, ie units without sonar should not be able to defensively bombard a submarine.





It is always strange watching a battleship...a unit that can't see a sub, defensively bombard when you attack a transport.

I don't know that I would make it completely immune. There is always a chance of detection, it may be slim however. For instance, when a sub comes up to make a shot, it's periscope could be spotted by an alert lookout. The scope could also show up on surface radar believe it or not.. Now I'm not sure if a surface unit would have time to fire a shot before the sub fired, but it could evade a torpedo possibly. Of course you are getting into a tactical aspect in the game which most people tend to abhor. I like it myself.

2) Subs should get one free shot on attack
Again, going back to the surpise factor, a sub should get to fire once before the defender has a chance to retaliate. One round of combat with the defender unable to respond. This makes subs valuable attackers for naval units that are already damaged. This also would help overcome the 8 attack factor of subs.




The following are things that might be more difficult to implement:


3) Subs should have hidden nationality when facing any unit without sonar
Naval units without sonar can't see a sub until that unit is attacked. If a sub can't be spotted until attack, it is reasonable that the nationality would be hidden. Please note that I am not arguing for overall hidden nationality for submarines. If a unit has sonar, they can spot its nationality.

I like this idea, but the same principle could apply to shore bombardment from naval surface units. That poor sap standing on the beach can't see the flag of the battleship or whatever that if firing from over the horizon. I say unless you have another unit or aircraft within one or two tiles of the attacking unit, then the nationality would not be known. This is intereresting because if you rush a unit out there and see a few ships of mullti nationality, you will be wondering which one attacked you since you may very well be at peace with one or more. Wouldn't that make for some tense "finger poised on the button" moments?



[Any thoughts?

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[I like your suggestions overall.

I disagree with items #1 through #3.

You are assuming subs are invisible. If I have a unit that can see a sub then defensive bombardment is a legitimate. I personally like to spot subs then use bombers on them. If I can see a sub then there is no reason it should get a free shot at one of my units.

Subs are very effective at attacking merchant vessels or vessels that can not detect them (transports or older ships) but I am certainly not sold on their dominace of combat with say a destroyer.

I really like your last idea, splitting the nuclear subs into 2 classes.

Originally posted by Renfield
I disagree with items #1 through #3.

You are assuming subs are invisible. If I have a unit that can see a sub then defensive bombardment is a legitimate. I personally like to spot subs then use bombers on them. If I can see a sub then there is no reason it should get a free shot at one of my units.

Subs are very effective at attacking merchant vessels or vessels that can not detect them (transports or older ships) but I am certainly not sold on their dominace of combat with say a destroyer.

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I don't want it to be dominant. I want the sub to get a freebie shot and not have defensive bombardment when something can't see it.

Destroyers can see subs. So subs might not get this benefit with destroyers (#1 has that caveat in there). The one free shot is to enable the element of surprise. I was thinking that if you have a battle group and transports and nothing has sonar...then the sub would be more effective...just as in real life.

I see your points, though. I like your ideas, and they can be integrated with mine....because I think you are addressing the ships with sonar? Feel free to correct me.

When it comes to submarines, I have thought extensively on the problem. What I propose would be that submarines would have 3 levels of readiness.

1. Peace. The subs would still be invisible unless someone stubled into them, then they would show their nationality (this is all assuming that stacking of units from different civs is unfeasable for the programmers).

2. War with limited targets. The subs would attack enemy ships, or certain types of enemy ships (you could have a global specification to leave battleships or destroyers alone, etc.) Any neutrals would revert to #1.

3. Unrestricted submarine warfare. The subs would attack any non-allied shipping (again with the caveat of naming the types of ships that they will attack).

When an enemy ship or fleet enters a submarine's square, the sub has a greatly enhanced attack from surprise. Once it has conducted its attack, it automatically bounces to a sea square that the owning player believes is open. If your enemy has a submarine in that square (or a combat ship of some sort) then your sub is compromised and attacked. Or you could opt to leave the sub in its square if the enemy was sunk and nothing was left.

This allows for wolfpack tactics as well. You could station multiple submarines in a water square and when your enemy tries to flush you out, he faces attack after attack by your submarines.

One of the important points in all of this is that the distance seen over water must be brought under control. Ships should not be able to find other ships out at sea unless they bump into the occupied square (or both try to enter the same square in the case of turnless play). This gives a much greater role for the use of surveillance aircraft and patrol boats.

While on the subject: Air superiority should be expanded to Sea superiority. Both aircraft and ships should be able to be put on patrol to look for invading fleets.

I like all the ideas.
I mean, imagine a guy on a transport saying "Sir, a torpedo just came out of nowhere and killed 90% of our tripulation, but yes, I DID saw a russian flag on it before it blew"
(I think I made some english mistake there, but hey, the joke has no fun! Who cares?)

1. Immune: No
Doesn't make sense for at the time of attack they are no longer invisible.

2. One free shot: No
There's no such thing as a free lunch. AI subs are pesky enough now. Better to give them retreat ability which is more realistic. Fire and then run and hide.

3. Hidden nationality: Undecided
Don't see the need here. Better to get sub bug fixed than to add new feature.

4. Boomers & attach subs: yes
This had been talked about. Should not be too hard to impliment. Keep current sub as boomer and add new unit of attack sub.

My 2 dollars.

PF

Here are some of my comments relating to subs: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=2011033#post2011033

My comments on your suggestions:

1) Subs should be immune to ALL bombardment by other ships, since they are underwater. However, they should be vulnerable to antisubmarine bombardment by planes.

2) Why should they get a free shot? Simply upping the sub's attack from 8 to 10 would accomplish the same effect and be much simpler to implement. You can already do this yourself with the editor. In my personal mod I give subs an attack of 10.

3) Perhaps but I don't see how this complication would improve gameplay.

4) I disagree completely. In my mod I make nuclear subs have higher attack and defense values. Like 8-10 defense and 12-15 attack. This simulates their superiority over diesel subs. I make regular subs upgrade to nuclear subs. I don't see the need for separate attack and ballistic subs. In real life they are different but for the purposes of gameplay it is fine to have one sub represent both. Furthermore, I think even in real life attack subs can carry tactical nukes anyway, although they don't carry the huge ballistic missiles.

You are perfectly free to go into the editor and create ballistic sub or attack sub units if you wish, though.

As additional comemnts, in my mod I make nuclear subs available with nuclear power since this is the technology that allows them in real life and I also allow regular subs to carry 1 nuke. I then allow nuclear subs to carry 2 nukes. After all, I see no reason why a diesel sub couldn't carry a small tactical nuke and this allows a unit to carry tactical nukes as soon as they become available (since I make nuclear subs available with nuclear power, not fission).

planetfall said:

1. Immune: No
Doesn't make sense for at the time of attack they are no longer invisible.

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They are invisible as they are under water at most times. Typical WW2 sub attack tactics was fire as many torpedoes as possible (from under water), dive even deeper, shut off engines to lessen effectiveness of enemy sonar, then wait... will escort find me or not?
Sometimes sub was spotted anyway (periscope up) or it's location deducted from torpedo direction but that's another story. IMO sub should be vulnerable to defensive bombardment only when attacking from surface which doesn't happen often. Maybe if it's already damaged when attacking or something like that.

NP300 said:

Here are some of my comments relating to subs: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=2011033#post2011033
1) Subs should be immune to ALL bombardment by other ships, since they are underwater.

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Never heard of depth charges? In RL, more subs have been destroyed underwater by ships than by aircraft.