Submarine Ideas

sealman

sealman

Hater of Babylonians
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Starrider posted some decent sub ideas over in the conquest forum and I hope he does not mind me posting them over here as well.

1) Subs should be immune to defensive bombardment.
A sub attack is a surprise, and therefore other units in the stack shouldn't get a shot at the attacking sub.

This could be changed to subs being immune to defensive bombardment by units that cannot see a sub, ie units without sonar should not be able to defensively bombard a submarine.

It is always strange watching a battleship...a unit that can't see a sub, defensively bombard when you attack a transport.

2) Subs should get one free shot on attack
Again, going back to the surpise factor, a sub should get to fire once before the defender has a chance to retaliate. One round of combat with the defender unable to respond. This makes subs valuable attackers for naval units that are already damaged. This also would help overcome the 8 attack factor of subs.


The following are things that might be more difficult to implement:


3) Subs should have hidden nationality when facing any unit without sonar
Naval units without sonar can't see a sub until that unit is attacked. If a sub can't be spotted until attack, it is reasonable that the nationality would be hidden. Please note that I am not arguing for overall hidden nationality for submarines. If a unit has sonar, they can spot its nationality.

4) Nuclear subs should be split into two units: Balistic Missile Submarine and Nuclear Attack Submarine
Balistic Missile Subs should be expensive in sheilds, and be able to carry both Tacticle Nukes and Cruise Missiles. I think 4 is a good number (combination of the two types). Balistic Missile Subs should be slower, perhaps even slower than non-nuclear submarines. They would have limited attack power, and ideally could only be spotted by advanced naval units.

Nuclear Attack Submarines should be fast, have strong attack, and unable to carry missiles. They should havea no problem spotting balistic missile submarines.
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I would like to add a #5 and that would be to fix the dreaded "sub bug" where war is declared when the AI moves into a tile where you sub is sitting.
 
while all good ideas one thing you should catch onto is that the first three are just symptomes of a larger problem, which is the inferior system of dealing with stealth units.
 
Originally posted by Suki
while all good ideas one thing you should catch onto is that the first three are just symptomes of a larger problem, which is the inferior system of dealing with stealth units.
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True, but what do you suggest as an improvement?

On a side note, how about giving some stealthy units, like subs and guerillas, etc., a "hit-and-run" attack ability that would be similar to an artillery unit's bombard except that the attacker would also have a chance to get wounded. Basically, instead of attacking until one unit was defeated, these hit-and-run units would attack only for one round of combat, either wounding the defender or taking damage themself, then combat would end. Such units that had more than 1 movement point could attack and then fade away into the ocean depths, jungle, or whatever, and using a large number of such units would be an effective way to take out more powerful defenders, i.e., several subs could team up to take out a surface ship, as German "wolf-packs" did in WWII.

Such an ability could require a special command (like bombard does), or it could be the default attack for certain units, which would keep the ability from being overpowering since they would not be able to attack very effectively alone. If they brought back Firepower, one sub might sink a galley, but it wouldn't be able to take out a transport or battleship on its own unless the ship was already wounded. "Hit-and-run attack" would thus be somewhat of an advantage but also somewhat of a limitation. You could safely give such units reasonably high attack values, representing the additional attack value of surprise, since they still would need multiple units to actually defeat a foe. Low defensive values would make them vulnerable to counter-attack (if they could be found, that is).
 
When it comes to submarines, I have thought extensively on the problem. What I propose would be that submarines would have 3 levels of readiness.

1. Peace. The subs would still be invisible unless someone stubled into them, then they would show their nationality (this is all assuming that stacking of units from different civs is unfeasable for the programmers).

2. War with limited targets. The subs would attack enemy ships, or certain types of enemy ships (you could have a global specification to leave battleships or destroyers alone, etc.) Any neutrals would revert to #1.

3. Unrestricted submarine warfare. The subs would attack any non-allied shipping (again with the caveat of naming the types of ships that they will attack).

When an enemy ship or fleet enters a submarine's square, the sub has a greatly enhanced attack from surprise. Once it has conducted its attack, it automatically bounces to a sea square that the owning player believes is open. If your enemy has a submarine in that square (or a combat ship of some sort) then your sub is compromised and attacked. Or you could opt to leave the sub in its square if the enemy was sunk and nothing was left.

This allows for wolfpack tactics as well. You could station multiple submarines in a water square and when your enemy tries to flush you out, he faces attack after attack by your submarines.

One of the important points in all of this is that the distance seen over water must be brought under control. Ships should not be able to find other ships out at sea unless they bump into the occupied square (or both try to enter the same square in the case of turnless play). This gives a much greater role for the use of surveillance aircraft and patrol boats.

While on the subject: Air superiority should be expanded to Sea superiority. Both aircraft and ships should be able to be put on patrol to look for invading fleets.
 
The ongoing submarine thread is here : Some Comments on Submarines

Lots of people are responding under that thread...so you might consider posting there....

And yes feel free to use my ideas anywhere on this forum so long as you credit me (which the original poster did.)
 
Original Thread At GCF

For some reason, in Civ3, submarines are very underpowered. When attacking an aircraft carrier, they have a high (over fifty percent) chance of losing. So, I prepose that in Civ4, Submarines primarily attack enemies with something like the Civ3 bombard. It would have a quite high rate of success though, with that rate increasing as the submarine (and sonar and torpedo) get upgraded to more modern technology. Submarines seem to be being explored fairly well in Civ4 with stealth attack, but they are still underpowered, IMO. I would personally mod them to have a good bombard strength, but

1. They would be able to bombard land, and I only want the most modern ones to be able to do that
2. You can't have "stealth bombard."

__________________

In history, torpedo bombers played a significant role. However, they are impossible to all to Civ3, because they could bombard land. But, it would be interesting to add them in Civ4.

__________________

IMO, Civ4 should have a "torpedo" model. Both submarines, and torpedo bombers would work off of this model. They would be more deadly, and perhaps more accurate than regular bombs, but could only be launched at sea. This could also open up the possibility for PT (patrol torpedo) boats that could fire torpedoes.

__________________

Then, there could also be underwater mines. You ships and subs could avoid them, but enemies, who don't know where they are can't. Perhaps minesweeper ships could remove them. Modern ships with modern sonar could see them, but would have to go to another square to avoid them. Perhaps mines could be produced in coastal cities, carried by boat to the destination square, and released. They would then be automatically fortitified until either hit, or X turns pass, and they time out, and disappear. When a ship hits them it will work off of the "mine model," explode, and do some damage. The damage could either sink, or badly damage the ship.

___________________

Mines and torpedos could also turn out to be dud when they explode.
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Why not have a transport submarine? That way you can transport your units without them being seen... of course this type of sub should be expensive...
 
It would be nice if subs could occupy the same square as ships other than your own. They're under water so i see no reason why they wouldn't be able to. They should also allow you to occupy the same square as allies for all units like in SMAC
 
galleons and frigates shouldnt be able to attack subs,it makes no sense and it gets really annoying.Maybe destryers but thats it.
 
pirke said:
Why not have a transport submarine?
Click to expand...

An excellent idea. Submarines have many and varied uses, especially in the littoral (shallow water) environment. Many armed forces throughout the world use subs for coastal reconnaissance and the insertion of Special Forces. It would be good if, should CivIV have a Special Forces unit (generic or otherwise) that there be the ability to covertly insert a unit on foreign soil, and extract them at the completion of a mission. The days when a sub was primarily used only as a means of destroying enemy shipping are long gone.
 
Maybe they should have a sneak-attack button which allows subs to attack other civs ships without declaring war but the chances of success would be low...
 
3) Subs should have hidden nationality when facing any unit without sonar
Naval units without sonar can't see a sub until that unit is attacked. If a sub can't be spotted until attack, it is reasonable that the nationality would be hidden. Please note that I am not arguing for overall hidden nationality for submarines. If a unit has sonar, they can spot its nationality.
Click to expand...

The British didn't seem to have much trouble identifying who was sending those U-Boats in WWI. Granted, they were already at war, but under your model, when they sank the Lusitania, it would have had no effect as America wouldn't have known who was responsible!
 
Mewtarthio said:
The British didn't seem to have much trouble identifying who was sending those U-Boats in WWI. Granted, they were already at war, but under your model, when they sank the Lusitania, it would have had no effect as America wouldn't have known who was responsible!
Click to expand...

If im not mistaken, i think that was because Germany was the only country at that time with a large sub force. In the game, I think the nationality should remain hidden if two or more civs have subs.
 
The game should keep track of what each civ is aware that other civs have. So if you know only one civ has subs and you get attacked by one, you know who to blame. If you know two have subs and you get attacked, you get a dialogue asking if you want to accuse one of them (better guess right). If you know one civ has subs, but you dont know that that other civ also has them, and you get sub-attacked, things get interesting.
 
In the start of ww1 Germany had indeed a smaller sub force than Britain. But the German subs were more modern and able to cross the North sea. Most British subs had to be used near the coast.
The idea for subs having such an ability is interesting but I don´t know if I would support it.

Adler
 
what about that fact of being submerged and surfaced. If your going to be underwater with people. There should be a limit and A specific distance at which other ships can see you surfaced. But I think that is already dealt with because units can already only see so far
 
and sonar wasn't perfect. They soon put rubber tiles on the subs that soaked up alot of the energy, And did alot of things to make things quiter. And theres stuff like the hydrophone(but that relied on the skills of the sailers deciphering. And then computerized sonar came out. With the ability to decipher and label things for you. But was not completly perfect.
 
In playing last night I realized I can build nuclear subs even though I don't have the nuclear power tech
huh? a nuclear sub requires a nuclear reactor which requires nuclear power technology
this should be fixed in civ4
I also like the hidden natioanlity and getting a free shot ideas.
 
pirke said:
Why not have a transport submarine? That way you can transport your units without them being seen... of course this type of sub should be expensive...
Click to expand...

This is a good idea. I'd like a special forces sub that carries one ground unit, but no cruise missilses or nuclear missles.
 
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