Supply wagons/trucks

baseballfan45

Chieftain
Joined
Oct 8, 2003
Messages
44
I got this idea from rise of nations

supply wagons would cost 1 food

they would supply troops in enemy territory

if your units dont have a nearby supply wagon/truck they loose life

wagons/trucks could also be used to trade food between your cities
:goodjob:
 
Too much trouble in my opinion.
 
why do you think units havesuch comparativly low movement compared to real life? suply units are already implemented into the game as reduced movement
 
I agree that it is too much trouble, however, I still want to see a supply LINE established, especially for units with resource requirements such as oil or horses (for getting those cavalry healed only, of course). How in hell do I heal my cavalry in a conquered and besieged city when I can't even contact any of my own people?
 
true.. supply line is important and you see i miss them too... but still.. if you compare the effect of rairoads with roads that is great.. a tank can atack 2times and that is lot more than if it should go to the front by roads..
 
rcoutme said:
I agree that it is too much trouble, however, I still want to see a supply LINE established, especially for units with resource requirements such as oil or horses (for getting those cavalry healed only, of course). How in hell do I heal my cavalry in a conquered and besieged city when I can't even contact any of my own people?

rcoutme, regarding the question of healing cavalry or motorized units in a conquered and besieged city, I would suggest - I don't actually know if this already the case now - not letting the units even start to heal until all resistors have been calmed, and even when they have been calmed, if there is no connection with the resource (because of bombardment of surrounding terrain) through friendly or neutral territory, healing also cannot take place.

Would this do the job?

I futher agree it doesn't make sense wandering through foreign or neutral territory without supply, but that having units is too much trouble. I 've been thinking about this as well, and wonder what you guys think of a different concept of the in CIV3 PTW introduced "outpost". It's a post in another thread (General thread : Unit & Unit combat). Basically we're talking about an limited operation range of units, which can be enhanced by building "outposts", but then not by workers, but by military and scout units. Outposts would be for ground units what airfields are for air units: extending the operation range of units. Getting outside the operation range would cause severe detoriation of the units (simulating the lack of supply).

What do you think?

Regards,
Jaca
 
sampedestal, I think that's just the nice thing about it. The price for having no connection or blocked roads (by enemy units effectively around the city) cuts of the supply to the resource and might become a real problem for the invader. You may have to build (or have pre-built) an outpost outside the conquered city to get connection (back), or, after discovery of Flight, an airfield! So outposts and airfields could be the supply lines you may be looking for. Like it, or prfff...?

Another point I would like to add here. Could resistors also be more active, in the sense of destroying/sabotaging surrounding (or city) improvements such as roads? This would just be a small adjustment but with possibly large consequences: being cut-off from the supply of oil, needs a little bit more effort: rebuild the road.

Regards,
Jaca
 
For my part, I'd be willing to see ALL units have much greater movement-but at the cost of limiting them with my old favourite-operational range ;)! This would give you the PROPER effect of a supply-line-most importantly, a line you can sever to leave units stranded in enemy territory, a more historical movement rate, particularly within your own territory (and especially in the earliest ages) and, best of all, it does it without introducing yet another unit to manage!! Anyway, if you want to learn more about supply lines and operational range, check out the following threads:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=87853 and

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=85662

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
From the way I interpreted the concept, supply lines already do exist in the game. For example, you can't build certain units if a city doesn't have a road or rail connection, or a harbor. Including supply lines in a military context would introduce tons of complications, such as what would they need to be supplied for? Fuel and ammunition are two real-life concepts that are left out of the game for practical reasons, and bringing those into the equation would make warfare (especially over long distances on huge maps) impractical and nearly impossible. I think the Battlefield Medicine wonder covers the health issue (healing in enemy territory) well enough without introducing new units and potentially confusing concepts.
 
Adding some sort of logistical game play is critical to Civ 4! Without it Civ 4 is simply a patch to Civ 3 Conquests. What exists now is trivial.
 
There are plenty of other features that could be added to Civ3 to make Civ4 a widely different game, logistics is not something that must be increased...
 
The thing about supply lines is that it allows you to avoid attacking a city and instead go around it to cut it off. This would force your enemy to protect the flanks and construct a line of defense, thus creating a much more realistic war simulation without having to change too much around. I agree that having supply trucks and so on would be too much of a hassle, but simply using roads or harbors as a connection to your empire (ultimately your capital), you would have your supply lines. Units out of supply will not only be unable to heal, but slowly wear down, even if in a city.

We all know about Stalingrad for instance. Up until then, the Wehrmacht had used its Blitzkrieg tactics to break through the lines and encircle enemy formations and cities, cutting them off and forcing them to surrender. At Stalingrad they didn't, partially because of the tricky venture of crossing the Volga, and instead opted for (ultimately unsuccessful) streetfighting. When winter came, the Russians attacked the German flanks and surrounded Stalingrad, cutting of the entire 6th army from its supply route to Berlin and Paulus was forced to finally surrender.
 
This is slightly off the current vein, but it is on topic.

I like the idea of a suppy wagon unit, but only insofar as it can be used to trade extra food with a neighbor, or just another one of your cities.

Of course, this could also be handled with a slider...probably much better so.

In the end, there really isn't much that such a unit could do that we don't seem to all agree could be better accomplished with a more abstract tool.
 
I have posted some thoughts here and there, and finally decided to put all my thoughts on supply issues into one post. So here goes:

1a. First of all we don't like micro management, so no need for any supply units (on land that is, I'll come to that). They would only make a slow game in the later stages even slower. Roads/RR are more than enough to keep your cities and units supplied. Road/RR supply would also cause the neat side effect that you can't do this unrealistic dash with a warrior or scout the first thing you do, who is able to cover the entire continent AND keep your capital updated with a fresh map of its findings over thousands of years. You can't venture too far or you'll fall out of supply. Settlers would have to be supply sources of their own, since they would consist of roughly as many different types of people as in a city (which is a supply source), after all that's what they are there for, founding a city. This would also mean that an escorting unit following a settler would also be supplied.

1b. As a little side note, you should obviously be able to transfer food the way you like between connected cities. If you have one of those remote desert cities that are just there for the need to connect other cities and potentially bring you future resources like saltpeter or oil, you should obviously be able to send them food from say a city that has reached Pop 6 and lacks an aqueduct or river.

2a. An unsupplied unit is a unit that isn't on or adjacent to a tile with a road/RR connecting to your supply source, which could preferably be one of two cities that are connected to each other, friendly or neutral (unless this particular neutral has some sort of agreement with your enemy or another reason not to help you), not enemy. More ideas on supply sources could obviously be discussed. This would also have a neat side effect, namely the unrealistic stack combat we see. My main problem with Civ warfare is how it forces you to attack cities, which in reality is what you can and want to avoid. You wanna try to go around and cut its supply lines, since a city is often much easier to defend than open ground.

2b. An unsupplied unit loses 1 hp/turn. When down to nothing it is eliminated. There are ways to supply them from the outside (which I'm discussing further down), allowing them to maintain their strength, not heal. Guerillas should take longer to wear down, maybe they'd lose 1 hp every two turns instead or something. An unsupplied city is not able to produce and would slowly starve. As a side note, I do though wish to stress that I agree with the people saying that a bombarded/starved city/metropolis should retain its defensive bonus.

2c. An idea that might seem a bit complicated goes like this: Unsupplied units don't cost any upkeep as long as they are unsupplied. Their upkeep is kept in a special upkeep pool. If they are saved from their trap and back in supply, half their upkeep for the time unsupplied is paid, the rest goes to your treasury. This is because you wouldn't have to give them food or ammo when unsupplied (unless you do as in points 4a, 4b and 5, which would be handled in a different way), but they'd still want to be paid for their work when back in safety. If a unit is eliminated, the total upkeep for the number of turns unsupplied goes directly to your treasury.

3. Enemy roads (not railroads, though) are usable, but you cannot attack in the same turn as you use them. You would have to state whether you wish to use the road or not. If you don't use it, feel free to attack if in range. If you do use it, you can't even fortify in that turn. The roads only provide supply if you control them (if you were the last one to use them, the game would have to remember and you could have a function where you could see which part of which road was under which side's control, if you'd lose track on it). Once you control a railroad, you'd obviously get to use it as well.

4a. In my opinion, naval supply (and trade) should work differently. This was something I stated in another thread and has a lot to do with making your navy count for more than being just funny toys. You should have to have Merchant Ships to keep an island supplied. These would obviously be vulnerable and in need of escort. You could potentially use transports, but merchant ships would be much cheaper (also making you less worried about their necessity gameplay wise). This way, you'd be able to load a ship with supplies and send it to a coastal city that is cut off from land supply (see 2b), also making naval blockades less abstract. These ideas are, though, more about giving the navy a more realistic role than it has now. The main purpose of navies (apart from offshore bombardment and troop movement) is to protect or attack supply ships, that's why I want merchant ships but not the old land caravans from Civ 1 or Civ 2.

4b. A costal city that receives naval supply should be able to act as a supply source for the rest of the island or your (or a neutral's) part of that continent, depending on how much it receives. How to balance this could be a matter of discussion/calculation. I'll not be bothered at this stage.

5. Another idea concerning 2b and the question of supplying units that have been cut off is that of air supply. Have a bomber make a normal bombing run, except instead of dropping bombs it can drop supplies. The drop can fail (misdropped) or be intercepted (through fighters on air superiority). If the drop is successful, the tile it drops on does not act as a temporary supply source for that turn, but the units on or moved to the tile itself are temporarily supplied for that turn. What should be needed to keep units supplied according to points 4a, 4b and 5 then? Well, possibly 1 food + 1 shield/tile (and possibly/probably the number of units in there) you try to supply, temporarily taken from a supplied city of your choice (you could obviously take the food from one city and the shield from another). This would simulate dropping rations, ammo, clothes etc into the unsupplied tile.

There you are, hope the rest of you are as fanatic about supply issues as I am. :D
 
1a. Agree 100%. Sometimes I just want to cry when I see a warrior running around years after years after years in a territory not suitable for living.

2a. Quite limited but when I come to think of it, it's actually not that limited at all. Waging a war and moving armies is a *****. Some units, such as guerrilas and Finnish troops, would have supply range of two tiles.

2b. This is too lame. With civ timescale a unit should be eliminated in two turns. In the first turn an unsupplied unit would be lowered to half hp and half attack/defence/movement values and in the second turn it would be eliminated. Or what the heck. Unsupplied unit would just be eliminated. Out of supply isn't a very good thing at all if at war and surrounded by enemies. Players should just be extra careful with their movements.

4a. I do agree about existence of merchant ships but they should be abstracted as visible supply or trade lines. This is a micromanagement issue. Importance of navies would still be higher since they would have to protect these lines from enemies. Intercepting these lines would have some kind of effect on units' supply or nations economy.

4c Naval blockades would occur when enemy ships would be adjacent to a city tile. Even if the city has more than one adjacent seatile, placing a ship in one of them would be enough to blockade the city. That city would lose all its supply and trade from the sea and sea tiles could not be worked at all. This again would make navies more important.

-Inkalu
 
There have been many suggestions already for supply an dbeing 'out of supply'. I think your really getting to complicated here, Civ is not a military combat game, military is an element I admit, but these rules are going to be to tricky for people to easily get a hang of.

I think the best plan, and the one I've repeated, is that for land units, you 'in supply' if your in firendly territory, and 'out of supply' if you in 'enemy territory'. All units have a small supply counter, like 3 or whatever, perhaps it should vary, which ticks down by 1 every time a unit ends its turn in enemy territory. When it reaches zero, the unit suffers, half attack and defence or something like that. A unit can refill its counter to full by spending its entire turn in friendly territory.

Ships I admit should work slightly differently, but I think only that a Ship ALWAYS loses its supply point every turn, unless it is a port (a city on the coast) (where it can refill its supply to full by spending an entire turn there). If it runs out of supply, it is destroyed, not penalised.

This is simply and effectively represents supply, without any need for road lines and such that the processor has to deal with, nor with merchant ships etc. etc. which are far beyond Civ's need in most peoples opinion. Your ideas are good, but I think its takign realism and accuracy too far, at the expense of gameplay.
 
Inkalu said:
4a. I do agree about existence of merchant ships but they should be abstracted as visible supply or trade lines. This is a micromanagement issue. Importance of navies would still be higher since they would have to protect these lines from enemies. Intercepting these lines would have some kind of effect on units' supply or nations economy.

As I stated elsewhere, this is the bad way of introducing merchant ships. This abstraction with sea routes represented by lines across the ocean just seems stupid. How does one attack or defend such a line? If the enemy puts a ship on your 'line', you'd assume the merchant vessels would go around them. With your suggestion you'd be forced to stack the whole line with ships of your own. I'm thinking convoys here, just implement a way to put several ships in one stack and you'll soon realise it doesn't involve too much micromanagement, but rather much more interesting naval warfare. It'd be more fun out there on the ocean, safely seeing your convoys from port to port or risking sending an unescorted vessel because you don't have enough ships. I'm all against micro management but I don't see how merchant ships would cause much of it.



TheDarkPhantom said:
There have been many suggestions already for supply an dbeing 'out of supply'. I think your really getting to complicated here, Civ is not a military combat game, military is an element I admit, but these rules are going to be to tricky for people to easily get a hang of.

I think the best plan, and the one I've repeated, is that for land units, you 'in supply' if your in firendly territory, and 'out of supply' if you in 'enemy territory'. All units have a small supply counter, like 3 or whatever, perhaps it should vary, which ticks down by 1 every time a unit ends its turn in enemy territory. When it reaches zero, the unit suffers, half attack and defence or something like that. A unit can refill its counter to full by spending its entire turn in friendly territory.

Ships I admit should work slightly differently, but I think only that a Ship ALWAYS loses its supply point every turn, unless it is a port (a city on the coast) (where it can refill its supply to full by spending an entire turn there). If it runs out of supply, it is destroyed, not penalised.

This is simply and effectively represents supply, without any need for road lines and such that the processor has to deal with, nor with merchant ships etc. etc. which are far beyond Civ's need in most peoples opinion. Your ideas are good, but I think its takign realism and accuracy too far, at the expense of gameplay.

Having to protect your supply route doesn't seem so complicated to me. If you're simply in supply in your own territory and out of supply in enemy territory, that means the whole point with supply goes AWOL. It'd still be stacks attacking cities, which is what I hate in the first place. And besides, keeping track of all your units and who have been in enemy territory for how long and moving them back into your own territory and yada yada, now that's micro management for ya. No, I say roads deliver supply, don't need no supply units, just plain good ol' roads. If an enemy gets onto a road in between your units and your supply source, your soldiers suffer attrition. How the actual attrition would be played out is an interesting matter of discussion, I'm all for Inkalu's modification of my ideas on that issue.
 
This abstraction with sea routes represented by lines across the ocean just seems stupid.

Without abstraction every merchant ship would have to be built and moved around the map separately at some point, even if some sort of stacked movement is implemented. This is unnessecary micromanagement.

How does one attack or defend such a line? If the enemy puts a ship on your 'line', you'd assume the merchant vessels would go around them. With your suggestion you'd be forced to stack the whole line with ships of your own.

Abstract convoys too. Naval units would have an option to 'go abstract' and vice versa. Player could assign units to a certain supply / trade line. If an enemy unit moved on the line, it would have an option to attack. If it attacked all or some convoys would fight back. I haven't thought of details of this but in general abstraction is better and more realistic way to represent world than individual units. Even land units should be abstracted but don't ask how.

When convoy units are 'unabstracted' (?), they could choose in which end of the supply trade / line they'd appear. Naval units should have a similar transport command as Civ III airplanes do. From a city to a city in one turn. This again would lessen micromanagement. Enemy ships in range could intercept these transports which would result in a naval combat.

-Inkalu
 
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