Future Techs

I would like to see Civ4 not waffle on future techs so much. I realize that seeing into the future is not something that the writers and programmers at Firaxis are experts at, neither am I. Instead, future techs should give little bonuses here and there. For instance, future techs could have topics and then assign a random bonus to the stuff related.

The easiest ones to visualize are units. If I researched future tech in aerospace then my aircraft could be upgraded (or get it automatically) to gain +1 on one of their traits (a/d/m/b). If I researched ballistics, then one of my units could be upgraded +1 attack. If I researched fiber technology then one of my units could receive +1 defense and so on.

Since this would only affect one unit, the other units would have to be researched up as well if the player was looking for such bonuses. In addition, some future techs could be researched to allow another building type. Researching "Scientific Research" could have a % chance to create a new building that increased science output in a city, ditto with production, commerce etc.

This is a very much needed implementation. I've always found it a waste great potential to have something as imaginative as Future, that really don't mean anything to the game. I think you might even consider having a Future 'Age' or ages that you move through as you continually pile on the Future Techs. There could be some sweet graphics posibilities.

Anything to make the Future Techs an actual part of the game would be a plus IMO.

@Flak: But the game has to stop somewhere! Ending with modern times seems like a sensible cut-off, it keeps the game from trying to be science-fiction as well as historical. If they add a future age, not only might some of the techs seem silly to a lot of people, but then what tech level should the game end at?

@rcoutme: I agree with your sentiment - its always bothered me that future techs are so useless, and that once you research all the "real" techs you might as well turn your research slider all the way down to zero. Certainly in the real world no modern nation is turning its research off because it knows "everything useful." But giving unit bonuses strikes me as a sort of "band-aid" solution, since there still wouldn't be any new units (with different graphics, etc.) beyond the "end" of the tech tree. And if a tech advance represents something as fundamental as the invention of gunpowder, or the alphabet, or whatever, then it seems like one would expect them to do a little more than just give your modern armor an extra attack point or two. I don't have a better solution (yet?) and I do think your idea is better than nothing... I just wish there was something more elegant.

Here's an idea (it could be used along with rcoutme's, or by itself):

Wealth (in Civ 3) or Capitalism (in Civ 2) are concepts that are supposed to let you take a city that has lots of shields but nothing worthwhile left to build and still get something useful from them: money (never mind the fact that the implementation is poor and its better to build units and disband them elsewhere ). How about something similar with science, applied to your whole civ. In other words, if you have a civ with lots of research beakers (from lots of libraries, universities, research centers, etc.) but nothing worthwhile left to research, you could instead get money from your beakers. This would represent the growth of modern companies that profit from scientific advances: agribusiness, pharmecutical companies, the personal computer and home electronics industries, etc.

The problem with just turning down your research slider and turning up the tax slider to make money is that you lose the benefit of any science related improvements and wonders, and by the late game you've often built a lot of those. So here's one way to implement my idea: have a late-game tech advance (called "High-tech industry" or hopefully something better) or maybe a Small Wonder (called Silicon Valley or something) that has the following affect: after its discovered or built, all science related improvements and wonders apply their bonuses to your base commerce rather than just to the part allocated to research by the slider. This represents the fact that new scientific research can benefit your entire economy, not just increase the chances of tech breakthroughs that the government can use. After discovering/building this, you could safely turn down your science slider (all the way to zero if you wanted) after discovering all useful techs, and you'd still be getting some benefit from your libraries, etc., in fact, there would still be reason to build more research labs, etc. in cities that didn't have the yet.

In case anyone doesn't understand what I'm suggesting here, here's a simple example: say you have a city that has 8 commerce, and you set the tax slider to 50% and research slider to 50% also. The 8 commerce normally gets divided into 4 gold and 4 beakers. If you build a marketplace, the 4 gold gets a 50% bonus and becomes 6, if you instead build a library, the 4 beakers become 6. Now say its near the end of the game, and you've discovered all techs, and you have a small city somewhere that has a library but no marketplace. At 50/50/0 on the sliders, its 8 commerce becomes 4 gold and 6 beakers, but if you raise taxes and cancel research (100/0/0 on the sliders) you'd just get 8 gold and 0 beakers: your library is now not helping you at all. Now, if you add my suggestion to the game, after its built/discovered, libraries give their 50% bonus to all 8 commerce points, giving you 12! At 50/50/0 on the sliders, you get 6 gold and 6 beakers, and at 100/0/0 on the sliders, you get 12 gold and 0 beakers. Now, it no longer matters where you set the science slider, you're still getting a benefit from the library, in fact, you're getting an even greater benefit than before (that's why it might be better to be a Small Wonder). With this suggestion implemented, you can still consider yourself a scientifically oriented civ, and still build science-related improvements and wonders, even though you set the science slider to 0% once you've discovered all the useful techs.

Originally posted by judgement
@Flak: But the game has to stop somewhere! Ending with modern times seems like a sensible cut-off, it keeps the game from trying to be science-fiction as well as historical. If they add a future age, not only might some of the techs seem silly to a lot of people, but then what tech level should the game end at?

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No, no. No new wierd sci-fi-ish techs. That's already been tried and failed. You'd still have generic future techs, with the bonusing idea of rcoutme. And the ages would also be generic, just based on some number of future Techs. The only graphics changes would be the citys themselves. It wouldn't be anything meaningful, but could symbolize a nice accomplishment. For example after discovering your first 20 future techs, you enter Future Age 1. Maybe Future Age II would occur at 50 future techs, Future Age III at 100... that's probably enough.

Also, the game doesn't have to end in modern times. It usually does, but one can achieve atleast 3 victory types (conquest, domination, cultural) in Civ III without ever entering the modern age. No need to change this for Civ IV except that you would add some generic Future Ages.

Originally posted by Flak
No, no. No new wierd sci-fi-ish techs. That's already been tried and failed. You'd still have generic future techs, with the bonusing idea of rcoutme. And the ages would also be generic, just based on some number of future Techs. The only graphics changes would be the citys themselves. It wouldn't be anything meaningful, but could symbolize a nice accomplishment. For example after discovering your first 20 future techs, you enter Future Age 1. Maybe Future Age II would occur at 50 future techs, Future Age III at 100... that's probably enough.

Also, the game doesn't have to end in modern times. It usually does, but one can achieve atleast 3 victory types (conquest, domination, cultural) in Civ III without ever entering the modern age. No need to change this for Civ IV except that you would add some generic Future Ages.

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Hhhmmm, okay, then I like the idea. At very least, have one future age: just as your city graphics change when you get the first tech in each era, they should change one more time when you research your first Future Tech. That would be a nice touch, without requiring much more in the way of graphics.

Honestly, I really loved the futur techs involved in Civ2 CTP. I think that those two additional ages (Genetic and Diamond ages) should be added. However, every player should be able to decide when he wants to stop.

In some words, ages should become options. You should be able to stop at Ancient, Middle, Industrial, Modern, Genetic or Diamond Age. There should be a number of turns allocated to each ages. That would allow anybody to play a short game if they want to without having to give up, see the score and consider that they won the game. With such an option, everybody would be happy to play with the techs they like. And it also gives another level than just the AI intelligence.

I think at the very least there could be one future tech. It wouldn't be too hard to imagine the technological breakthroughs that will occur in the next 50 years or so. These are the things we are working on today i.e. International Space Station (which I think would be a better end game then Alpha Centauri); discovery of Earth like planets around other suns; Missions to Mars; Nano-medicine; cloning; cross-atlantic train transport; on and on. People say we can't predict the future like that saying things like they predicted flying cars in 1900. Well to that I say what do you think an airplane is?

This would game a real sense of history; working through ancient times into the modern era which feels like home and then giving us a sense of wonder for the future.

If anything else how about the ability to turn the future era off.

Being able to turn off eras may be a nice function! That would also give you more of an initiative to start warlording early, because you cut off industrial, modern, and any future age.

But, yeah, I like rcoutme's idea for future tech a lot. That would give more in-game initiative to research future techs.
Of course, I also liked the idea of making the science go into the economy, but I don't think it's very realistic.

I think that perhaps specific unit based improvment is the better idea, say research 4 future techs to increase air movement by 1. Then 5 future techs for the next 1 movement point and so on. This would add some realism to the game, by making it seem like technology is improving, without having to add new units and graphics. Plus it would make further research an incentive and would allow specific development of offensive/defensive tactics to ALL civilizations

It woulodn't matter to most players. How many of you regularly get into the future era anyways? The AI doesn't usually last very long after I discover Arty.

It's always good to have the option though. You don't necessarily have to make this "science fiction", there's a reasonable level of estimation that is fairly accurate. Being able to expand a space station, for one, even things as simple as improved tanks/airplanes which will be developed sometime in the near future. Some of the things I mentioned may already be in the game, I haven't gotten that far, but expanding the limits is something I would definately encourage.

I am quite sure that Firaxis could pull it off to expand Civ into future ages without becoming silly, they did it with Alpha Centauri! I am hoping that this will be the focus of the expansion, lengthening the tech tree and giving us the ability to build sea cities.

I am certain that it isn't too hard to speculate about near future developments, both in science and in civics. They managed to do so nicely in CTP.

i agree there should be something more to future techs. I usually just turn my science down and start buying units instead of building them. they can add some things we are on the verge of having without being able to build Enterprises, birds-of-prey and DS9's.

Yes!! With been through four different versions of Civ, and they still haven´t bothered to try to expand the game into the future. Spaceships, spacewars, space-stations, AI, robots, time-travel, interstellar colonization

Include a "Future era" with a complete new chart of technologies! Some speculation, imagination, creativity and a bit of research and I´m sure they could make some interesting future techs.

Danielos said:

Yes!! With been through four different versions of Civ, and they still haven´t bothered to try to expand the game into the future. Spaceships, spacewars, space-stations, AI, robots, time-travel, interstellar colonization

Include a "Future era" with a complete new chart of technologies! Some speculation, imagination, creativity and a bit of research and I´m sure they could make some interesting future techs.

Click to expand...

Sure they did, they called it SMAC.

That's true that SMAC continues where Civ ends, however, I'd like to see my civ expand into future ages. The game is about developing a civilisation, and it is not necessarily historically correct (i.e any civ can build Hollywood or the Sistene Chapel). Therefore, some future ages (perhaps not too distant) may be desirable?

It's not historically correct, but it's meant to be at least an alternative form of history (eg while nobody would necessarily build "Hollywood" per se, any civ with the technology could have developed a world-famous movie industry). I've said this before, but the trouble with near future techs is that they make assumptions about how society will evolve in the near future. Sure, we can speculate as to what nanotechnology will give us or how soon cold fusion will be developed or the societal reaction to human genegineering, but there's no way to tell if it will be accurate without experiencing it. Back in the Industrial Revolution, people like Jules Verne thought we'd be getting to the moon with essentially a large cannon: Look how accurate that turned out.

The problem with Future ages is that they require techs beyond the techs that 'break the game'

the Reason the Space Race is a Win is because at this point you are putting down Settlers Off the map... Imagine an Old World only map... by about 1500 it is obsolete, because you can go Off the Map... Otherwise where did all of Spain's massive bunch of Gold suddenly come from?.. by 1950 the outcome of several Wars are based on the involvement of a large civ Founded by England that cannot be modeled.

The fact is the Space Race is put in to say OK we're out of techs so we'll give you a tech way to win.

Just like there is no point to building more units once you have wiped everyone out, or building more culture once all cities are legendary, there is no point to doing any more research once you have launched into space. You have surpassed the game at this point.

That being said I do like them having some utility to Future Techs, and I would prefer if they were more worthwhile, and with more variety. (the problem is what is "useful" at that point)

Quite frankly I would move almost the entire "Space Race" into the 'Future Era' [and make it colonization of Mars not Alpha Centauri].. but the point is that That is what you should do with your "Future Techs" use them to win the game... pretty useful I think. Although at a certain point various other 'Repeatable' Future Techs Should be available... and in Variety (Military/Happiness/increased Space Production/Increased Culture/etc.)

i'd personally like to see each era shown equally. Ancient and Classical are too fast and Modern too slow