A Couple of Ideas

Jon-Mikko

Chieftain
Joined
Apr 23, 2004
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15
Civ Specific Wonders
I think more work should be done to make each civ even more unique. Adding civ-specific units was a major step in the right direction and I think everyone agrees on this one, I do however think that each civ should have one(or more?) unique wonders that only that civ can build. Their golden ages then should be triggered by the completion of the wonder or by the first successful special unit. The golden ages should however only be able to be triggered in the same era as the tech that the wonder origins from. As an example, if egypts had pyramids(pottery) as their unique wonder, they would only be able to trigger their golden age in the ancient times. Once they come to the middle ages they can still build the wonder but wont't get a golden age. Using an ancient and outdated unit to trigger a golden age in the modern time is really bad in my opinion.

Catastrophies
Fourth, I would like to see alot more natural catastrophies, with alot more impact on gameplay. Randomness is fun! It would be really awesome if devastating earthquakes, tsunamis, floods, firestorms and hurricanes and massive plagues could be added. Some should be frequent and not so dangerous, while some should have a really large impact on the game but only happen very seldom. Imagine how fun the game would be, lets say that you're hoplessly under siege by some civ that is twice as large as you, it's only a matter of time before your empire crackles and it's game over. Normally you'd quit and start a new game when you 'know' that you're screwed, but lets say your rival gets struck by a huge earthquake which would completely change the outcome of the game. That would be cool. Natural catastrophies should offcourse be an option when you create a new game. Perhaps you should be able to set their impact level, kind of how you choose the amount of barbarians now.

Logistics
Fifth, I think something should be done to roads and railroads. It's both unreal and ugly as hell when every square of the entire map has road and railroad on it. In my opinion it would be better if both roads and railroads had some drawback (perhaps gold cost per room and turn) so that you only build them where you really want them. It could perhaps be done like this;

Roads
Roads would cost 1 gold/square and give you commerce from all squares directly adjacent to the road. They make you able to travel 3x as fast(like they are now, a warrior moving 3 squares/turn and a horseman 6squares/turn etc).

Railroads
Railroads would cost 5 gold/square and give you railroad bonuses on all squares which are 1 and 2 squares away from the railroad. They make you able to travel 6 squares each turn regardless of which unit is is. This is a huge change from the current game, but I think it would be a great change.

With the system of roads described above, the civ landscape would be alot more realistic and there would be a ****load more strategy as to how you build your roads and railroads. First of all since all roads would have a maintenance cost, you would only have roads where you really need them. The fact that railroads no longer instant-teleports units across huge distances would also add more strategy to the game, since it would make airports alot more attractive. The railroad would be the fastest mean of transportation for slow units, and roads would totally rock for fast units. Hmm, should I use the railroad or the road for my warrior? Let's see... Tactics!

Rough Terrain
The terrain of the map is one of the most important aspects of the game, which is why it is very important that it's as good as possible. One of the main reasons that Africa never was colonized until around year 1800-1900 is the fact that there was so huge distances of desert and then jungle between the mediterranean and the southern (juicy) parts of Africa. I think something should be done to make these areas less attractive(yes, less). Make so that if your civilization has not discovered medicine your units will get injured randomly (50% chance that you loose 1 hitpoint) when they move on a jungle square (deseases, fevers, malaria etc). Perhaps the same thing should be done to swamps. Deserts maybe should have the same affect but with a less %, say 25% chance to loose a hitpoint due to lack of water. This would make those nasty terrains even more nasty and would add more strategy to the game (should i risk passing through that wicked swamp to attack my enemy or should i go around?). This would also open up for new cool unit features such as Arab Beduin Warriors that can cross deserts safely, Zulu Impi could cross jungle safely, etc. Further I would like to see catapults and such units being able to cross mountains but at the same risk as normal units crossing swamps, ie: getting injured. The catapult maybe should have a 50% chance to loose 1 hitpoint every time it moves into a mountain square.

Governments
First of all, I think the governments should be changed around somewhat to reflect the history of our world in a better way, plus make some of the more war-mongering goverments used more. Throughout our entire history the entire world has been completely ruled by dictators, monarchs and kings until the french revolution in 1789. (Yes, the greeks had kind of a democracy but I don't think that justifies having republic as a government so early in the game, in my opinion Philosophy could be considered the achievement of the greek democracy but you should not be able to change your government into such a democracy). Further, the feudal societies were the pre-requisite to the strong monarchs of the late medeival and early rennaisance ages. When you think of a monarch, think of the mighty english and french kings between 1500-1700. When you think of feudalism, think of the feudal kings of the dark ages and the early middle ages, circa 500-1400. This also suits the game in a much better way, since feudalism is ideal when you have small towns and monarchy is ideal when you have larger towns. You always proceed from small to large, so why have monarchy before feudalism? That's madness. The order in which you attain feudalism and monarchy right now is completely screwed up since you most likely will have smaller towns when you get monarchy, and then when you get feudalism all your towns will have grown bigger so there is no longer any need for feudalism. Anyway, I suggest solving the governments issue and the order in which they are achieved in the following way;

Feudalism(should be attained in the late ancients, prefferably where monarchy is attained right now).
Monarchy(should be attained in the mid-medieval age, maybe as a spin-off tech from monotheism since basically all monarchs used religion as a major force to control their peoples and countries).
Republic(should be attained in the late medeival ages, maybe around the time you get democracy in the current game).
Democracy(this should be moved into the mid-imperial ages, around the time when communism is attained).

This change would make almost all the governments a must for any civ since you would attain them in ascending order. Everyone would get feudalism first and switch to that, then monarchy would be attained and would be used throughout the entire medeival-ages. Then republic would be attained, and a while after that you would get democracy. This would reflect the real world in a much better way and it would also make the game more fun since you'd basically have to use all governments.

Multiplayer Improvements
Make the multiplayer lobby a bit more sophisticated. There should definitively be a list of players that are visible in the lobby. Further make so that all multiplayer games have a version-number. The game should get the same version-number as the version-number of the player that creates the game. If a player has Civilization 4 version 1.12 then when the player creates a game the game should also get version 1.12. Players who have versions that are incompatible with version 1.12 should not be able to join the game. This is one of the more annoying things which causes a tremendous amount of hassle when creating multiplayer games.

Multiplayer games should have a scroll-able event history. It is extremely sucky that the (very short) message history just floods over so easily so that you loose track of what is happening in your empire. Make so that the history is a little window with a scrollbar. Further, the chat in multiplayer games also needs improvement. It most definitively needs a history aswell since it's very easy to miss what other people are saying if you just leave the keyboard for a few brief seconds.

Colonies / New Cities
Settlers should only be able to build cities if the new city will be directly conneced to your territory (so basically you will only be able to build new cities at a maximum of 3 squares outside your own borders, otherwise the city would be territorially unconnected which should not be allowed). It should not be possible to move a settler 30 squares outside your borders and build a city at a strategical resource. This way cultural buildings which expand your borders will be much better to build early in the game since it will allow you to build your new cities at a little greater distance from your old ones, plus that colonies will be MUCH more useful.

Territory Borders / War Declaration
If both civs have discovered mapmaking, war shold be declared instantly as you try to move a unit into their territory. It should not be possible to move units into their land at all without declaring war. (An exception should be made to peaceful units, settlers, scouts, workers. I think you should be able to have 1 peacefull unit inside their territory without a declaration of war, but the unit should NOT be able to pillage any improvements. If war is declared the unit should be teleported outside the borders to avoid cheese-pillaging of resources.) It should not be possible to sneak in a scout and pillage their iron as you declare war, but it should be possible to cross their lands with scouts and settlers to avoid trapping people.)

Replacable Parts
Make so replacable parts also require steel to make the rifleman era a bit longer.

Cultural Flips
Make so cities doesn't flip instantly to the enemy with cultural conversions, instead make so the units that occupy the city are slowly destroyed one after another and if the last unit is destroyed the city flips. It is VERY lame and extremely annoying that you can loose your entire army instantly just because the city they were protecting decides to flip to the enemy. Having so that the units are destroyed one after another is a much better sollution.

Defending Units
Make so that less precious units defend before precious units. A regular spearman with 3/3 health should defend before an elite spearman with 3/5 health. Or make so you can configure this manually in the game. It sucks that you loose your precious elite units when there are regular units that have as much health.

Making Tech Trading Harder
Make so that you can't trade technologies with other civilizations unless your borders are directly adjacant. If your borders does not connect education should be a required tech to trade techs, and if a sea separates your empires education -and- navigation should be a required tech and if an ocean separates the empires education, navigation -and- magnetism should be required in order to be able to trade technologies. This way the crazy amount of tech-trading in the ancient and medieval era will be slowed somewhat since you'll only be able to trade with those civs that are your closest neighbours.

National / Natural Resources
Currently there is only one national resource which your entire civilization shares and that is gold coins. I think all the natural resources and luxuries, iron, oil, spices etc should be changed so that they work like gold coins. Your civilization should have a 'buffer' for each resource type, and every natural resource that you control on the map would add a small(or large?) amount to your national buffer every turn. Natural resources should be a bit more common on the map and they should have different sizes. As an example, if you had control over a small iron ore which had size 8, you'd get 8 iron ore every turn. Every turn that passes your national buffer of iron ore would increase with 8. If you then have three swordsmen(each which requires 1 iron ore) you'd only increase your national buffer of iron ore with 5 each turn. If you have buffered up lets say 100 iron ore you could offcourse build a huge army of 20 swordsmen(which would cost 20 iron each turn) even though you only have that single iron resource which gives you 8 iron each turn (you'd go -12 each turn in total).

Now you ask yourself; "What happens if i build 200 swordsmen and then run out of iron? Will my swordsmen die?". No they would not die, you would be able to use them all but you would not be able to build new ones until you find some more iron. All ancient and medeival resources would work this way. If you build 20 knights you'll still have the knights even if you loose all your access to horses and/or iron.

In the industrial and modern eras however your units would become disfunctional. As a simple example, if you have 30 tanks (lets say that each tank costs 1 oil and 1 rubber) and you suddenly loose control over all your oil resources except a single oil well that gives you 17 oil each turn, then you would only be able to use 17 of your tanks(unless you have a huge buffer of oil), the rest of the tanks would be like catapults and workers are now, captureable by enemies. You woul ofcourse be able to choose which 17 of your tanks to use and which would be disfuncional. Think of it as choosing which tanks you deliver oil to.

A special case of this resource system would be when you want to build a square of railroad, then it could cost you 1 iron and 1 coal from your national buffer of iron and coal. Perhaps this could be used when building different wonders or buildings aswell.

Anyway, with this system of natural resources the game would be alot more playable since you would not be hoplessly game over if you happen to start on a continent with no(or little iron). Your opponents might have nearly infinite iron but if you just find a little iron ore resource you will still be able to build a few pikemen! Resources should ofcourse be distributed across the map so that they are much more common but so that you will also want to take control over several resources of the same type. This system would also open up a whole new aspect of trading resources.
 
Absolutely marvelous. I agree 100% on all of your suggestions, I have found myself wishing for some of those quite a couple of times. It seems there is no point in building some units because they only last long enough to get produced and then they are obsolete.

Suggestion on the road/railroad/airport etc must be one of the better so far.

Good Ideas!
 
Many of the suggestions that you have here are, in fact, being discussed (maybe in somewhat different terms) in other threads. I kind of like the idea of roads and RR being between squares (kind of like rivers are now). This could easily make the river bonus very similar to the road and RR bonus (except no maintenance cost of course). Keep thinking:egypt:
 
I didn't mean that the roads should be 'between' squares like rivers are. I meant that they should be like now, but instead of only enhancing (giving commerce etc) to the square it is built upon, the adjacent squares will also get the benefits of the road.
 
You do realize that you can do exactly what you want with the number of civs today. With about a 30 second edit in the editor I can make a game with all 31 civs on a tiny map.
 
GREAT IDEAS! I agree with all of them except for the speed change. I think that you shouldn't be able to change the speed of the game (except in the editor), and that the Civ team should think about having longer time for knights and stuff to be active.
 
I'm sure I could find a way to exploit the game speed option. If you are ahead by a few important techs (or even one really good one) why not slow down research to the minimum to keep your opponents from catching up?
 
I think your ideas are good. Some are being discussed elsewhere, as rcoutme already said. I like your idea about the roads, railroads and highways. There has been substantial debate about this somewhere here (If I only remembered where!). The methods are varied, but the idea is the same: there is no point in unlimited movement and railroads shouldn't be everywhere (it looks silly and is unrealistic). While these could be argumented against (unlimited movement makes moving easy and simple, there are actually a lot of railroads crossing all over USA...), the renovation of road-systems should be considered.

I think that warpstorms notion of exploitation is a good one and should be considered. It would be real easy to slow down the game after you have built a few tanks so that you had more turns of supremacy. If you would slow down the whole game (movement and such), that would undermine the whole idea.

What they should do instead is "naturally" increase the lifespan of many units. They did that to frigates and galleons by separating the ironclads to a tech of its own - although after thinking it is a marvelous idea found it not-so-marvelous after all: I never built ironclads after that change. By adding a tech or two between gunpowder and knights you could increase the life span of the knights. A totally another question is whether it should or shouldn't be increased.

Good ideas, nonetheless, though I think you are just a bit too thrilled about the Massive Destruction Inflicted By The RNG :lol:. I have expressed my view of this elsewhere, but will repeat it here: one should be very careful with these sort of things. While it would perhaps be fun to see your enemies brutalized so, I believe it would be simply annoying and downright game-breaking to have it happen to you. Small events, perhaps even minor catastrophies, yes, why not, but large scale mass destructions... Well, atleast add a button "turn off..."!
 
Originally posted by Shyrramar
While it would perhaps be fun to see your enemies brutalized so, I believe it would be simply annoying and downright game-breaking to have it happen to you. Small events, perhaps even minor catastrophies, yes, why not, but large scale mass destructions... Well, atleast add a button "turn off..."!

Yeah, offcourse it would have to be 'balanced' so that it is not totally insane. And if you think about it, if it happens randomly, there's always a larger chance that it strikes somebody else but you (unless you have control of more than 50% of the world, which you almost never have unless you're about to win). And further, if it was coded so that it strikes a large area it would most likely hit several nations and not only one.

Well, the main point was just to have some more catastrophies, I'd much rather see a bunch of small and rather mild ones than none at all. Random = fun.


Your comments about the speed control were good, I never thought about that one. Hmm, maybe one should be able to set that control at the creation of the game instead, that way you can't cheat with it. Lets say that you at game initialization could set it to reduce game speed to 0.5 at the first discovery of gunpowder, and restore it at the first discovery of nationalism, or something. Shrug. Maybe you're right that the best thing would be to add some techs between the critical ones to make the units 'last longer'. Well, it was only an idea. :)
 
I like all these Idea's and would like to see them in the game, Iv thought about many of them from time to time. I espetialy like the sugestion to whear out troops in forign rugh terrrain I woulld add the same effect for tundra as well, forign troops invading russia often sufferd from frost bite from being poorly clothed.
 
Yeah that's another great idea, it would make it so much harder to invade countries with bad terrain hehe, man would that add a new aspect of strategy to the game or what? :)
 
Replies:

Civ-specific wonders...no problem with this idea. Balance would be a bit tricky, but it should be relatively easy to achieve. I tentatively like it.

Game speed...bad idea that would lead to extreme exploitation and loss of balance and would completely destroy immersion for lots of people. And it adds nothing. If you want more time in a certain era, always, simply edit the game (tech prices or make/find a whole scenario in that time period).

Number of civilizations...already in Civ3. Even with my really-poor-editor skill, I can whip that up in a few minutes.

Natural catastrophies...horrible, terrible, atrocious idea. "Hmmm...I've struggled back from nearly insurmountable odds and am about to take a solid position in the game and BAM!!! Something I have no control over comes in and wipes out my game?" NO THANKS! Why not just roll a dice and whoever gets higher wins? I can't think of a better way to ruin the civ series than to listen to this idea.

Logistics...While I don't think roads and rails everywhere is unrealistic, these ideas are pretty interesting. There's a lot of room for good ideas in the transportation/communication model of Civ and the ideas here have some merit. Some old-timers (like me) might complain that removing infinite move from RRs is an affront to the older civ games, the gameplay potential and competing goals makes this idea interesting. Not sure on the details but I like some of the concepts.

Rough terrain...I like the idea of making exploration harder and maybe a bit more random (push on or go back?). Something similar could be done with sea/ocean squares, too (and playing with movement points, perhaps), to make suicide galleys/curraghs more interesting. This also would add some OOMPH to expansionist traits. Terrain improvements could change the odds of damage, too. And RoPs have more potential. Two thumbs up for this concept.

Arathorn
 
Civ-Specific Wonders? Nah.

Game Speed? No good. Besides, the Civ3 editor is flexible enough to allow longer ages (in terms of beakers required to discover tech).

Number of Civilizations? The editor can easily change the max quantity of Civs on a given map size.

Natural Catastrophies? Awful idea. If achieving more "realism" motivated you to suggest that, I would suggest that you read this thread and perhaps post.

I disagree that the roads and railroads look ugly. I also disagree that it's unrealistic to let roads and railroads cover your territory, especially in the Modern Times. However, adding maintenance costs for existing roads and railroads isn't a bad idea. :) I also agree that railroads are overpowered, but adding highways may be too much.
  • Roads: You spend one gold per ten roads per turn. Anything more expensive would require rethinking the entire system of income collection. Same movement bonus as in Civ3, which allows moving three times faster than moving on unimproved terrain.
  • Railroads: You spend two gold per fifteen railroads per turn. The new movement bonus would allow moving twelve squares per turn.
Of course, the Domestic Advisor would need to display the total expense of maintaining your system of roads and railroads. Units on roads and railroads in enemy territory receive no movement bonus.

Rough Terrain? On randomly generated maps using parameters of 3 billion years old and warm temperature, your idea penalizes the players too much. It may give the nod to realism, yet gameplay suffers. IMHO, the concept of disease penalizing units in Civ3 is realistic and good, though it may need tweaking. (In all the games of Civ3 I've played, I've never garrisoned a unit in wetlands, fearing the penalty. I'm not exactly sure what the penalty currently is.)

Sorry if my review seems harsh. :( I thought you had one good idea; I grant you that.
 
I have garrisoned units in wetlands and never suffered a penalty (although I have had some cities suffer). I think that penalties for bad terrain should exist. Even the soldiers in WWII and Vietnam had casualties due to terrain.
 
All feedback is welcome, especially negative critizism, that's what makes one see things more clearly. I'm going away for a week now and will spend lots of time on a damn buss so I will have time to think some and review my ideas. When I get back I will edit my post some, hope some more people posted even more feeback by then. :king:
 
Liked your suggestions, especially the one about game speed! It,s important that an age lasts long enough to get a feel of it!
 
I still disagree on the changing game speed. Also, I don't think there should be HUGE CATASTROPHIES, because that never happens, or if it would happen, it would be 0-2 times per game (aka, plague & huge meteor-- or something). Also, maybe you should be able to turn off catastophies in the beggining of the game, so that one game wouldn't have it, and another would. But, I do agree, that random things are good. They help add flavor, and give a chance to those who don't have so much of a chance (or maybe take them down). You think it was fair that all of Europe had the black plague affect them? not really, but, hey, that's life, and civ4 should be fairly realistic. If you don't want realism, buy WarcraftIII or Alpha Centauri, both good games, but not very realistic for our times. I enjoy Civ3 much more for it.

I don't know if there should be highways, because you almost never EVER see military traveling on the public roads. But, I think there should be maintanence cost for railroads and roads and stuff, and you can increase or decrease, increasing or decreasing the speed that your units can move on it. Therefore, if you don't want to pay any money, because you're almost broke, then your units will only move 2x as fast on roads, or something, but if you pay max, your units will move 4x (or more) as fast on roads. Of course, then, you'll have to be careful where you place your roads. Also, on the topic of roads, I think enemy units should also be able to move almost as fast or as fast through your roads as they do through theirs, unless you have a ROADBLOCK set up. This would greatly increase the difficulty of the game, because you'd have to predict when and where your enemies would attack, and put roadblocks where you think they would. I'm not sure how good it would be, but I think it would be an interesting concept.

Also, the terrain affecting units is awesome. I mean, Napoleon's troops lost severely against Russia because of the harsh climate, and the lack of food and stuff. That's another thing that should be allowed, you should be able to raise your own crops and land, starving your enemies (unless they have food)!!

Also, I would like to see underground transportation systems/secret passageways for your military installed, which only you could use, because the enemy would almost never find it, unless he'd find the hub (the city where they all connect, usually your capital).
 
Nice post, Jon-Mikko.

Your civ-specific wonders is, of course, an old concept from various modpacks and scenarios, where certain prerequisite techs are only available to one nation: the same way to give civs their own unique units, as in Civ3. I approve - it shouldn't be too exclusive, however. Each nation should START with the prerequisite tech for its unique wonder, and that tech will not benefit them in any other way. Thus, they have a headstart on building said wonder; but the other nations can discover the tech later on.

As Shyrramar said, there have been other discussions on the idea of massive natural catastrophes. Here's mine!
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85793

The transport system logistics suggestion has merit, though it would further tax one's often-strained finances. There would have to be an option for letting this or that road/railway/highway fall into disrepair if you couldn't afford the maintenance. It could get terribly complex, and require a new advisor or minister for transport who could be given control over this part of the budget.
 
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