Dark Ages

I would like to see "Dark Ages" added to the game. Would work opposite to a Golden Age.

Would be initiated by a Random Event like plague, flood, cosmic event (meteor , asteroid, comet), major volcano (like Krakatoa), major earthquake, major drought, etc.

More than one Civ could be effected by the same event.

Could loose the ability to research new advances for a number of turns, maybe even have advances taken away from you, you would have to rediscover technologies.

I guess affectively you would be in an extended state of anarchy, with the possibity of also forgetting some of what you have previously learned.

Thought: You imagine what Greece may have achieved if it didn't go into a Dark Age from 1200BC to 800 BC. They may have had electricity before 1 BC.

I don't like this idea. The denial of research during anarchy does a fine job simulating a "dark age"

Originally posted by sealman
I don't like this idea. The denial of research during anarchy does a fine job simulating a "dark age"

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I am thinking that there should be something more severe possible. In anarchy, if you have a religious Civ, anarchy only lasts one turn.

I think that it should be possible to be bad enough to loose technology (not just stop learning), maybe be set you back hundreds of years in technological advances.

I am not saying that this would be a mandatory occurance in every game, maybe just make it a possibilty, it could be editable.

I think it is wrong that a Civ does nothing but always advance for 6000 years straight. There should be the possibility of periods of decline.

The real Dark Ages were not Civs losing advances, they were advanced Civs dying with no one to replace them.

Ya. How about if a major empire is conquered science rates get really slow for all his neighbors.

Originally posted by Mewtarthio
The real Dark Ages were not Civs losing advances, they were advanced Civs dying with no one to replace them.

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I have to agree with you for the most part.

The Greeks had built a great Civ from 2100 BC to 1200BC, then they entered a Dark Age that lastest 400 years, then their Civ picked up and thrieved for another 800 years.

I guess you could say it wasn't the same Civ, but it was the same peoples in the same location. Their ancestors were the previous Civ, but have always been looked upon as being Greek.

Looking at how many Civs there were in the Mesopotamian area, one replacing the other, Sumeria followed by Babylonia. Again probably Babylonians were descendants of Sumerians establishing what was a new Civ in virtually the same spot.

Just as other Civs went through several dynasties and/or empires, like the Chinese and Egyptians, but through all the rises and declines have always been known as the Chinese and the Egyptians.

Maybe the reason they are called dark ages is because we can't get a clear vision of what happened during these periods due to the fact that survival was the number one priority and there was not a big amount of recording of what was going on.

Maybe I should withdraw the request for dark ages and ask that anarchy be editable for duration and also expand on what may trigger anarchy.

The "Dark Ages" was not really a time of "lost" knowledge. It was a time of barbaric activity where the knowledge was not disseminated well among the victors of the fall of the Western Roman Empire. In other words, the Byzantines retained all of the knowledge that the Romans had accumulated.

Not only that, but much of the stuff that was thought "lost" was really waiting in books that not many of the follow-on people could read (literacy was terrible and the quantity of reading material was short due to lack of printing press, etc.). Thus, the "Dark Ages" actually added quite a bit of knowledge to human history, especially in the realms of warfare, metallurgy, religion (many of the Catholic Church Doctors were living in the Dark Ages) and other fields.

I think that the loss of techs would be a bad move. The techs were still there, people just were not using them (which is easily simulated in an 8 turn anarchy period).

Dark Ages were removed from Civ3. Early versions had it implemented but it was removed because it wasn't fun to play during the Dark Ages. The Barbarian Uprisings were added in their place.

Well, I think they should be brought BACK, along with barabrian uprisings.
I think that it should be a 'Random Event' similar to plagues, with parameters that can be set within the editor (but with certain 'default settings') I also think that a civ should be only able to suffer, AT MOST, one Dark Age in a game-and it would have to happen only under fairly extreme cicumstances-like the loss of your Capital, or the loss of a LARGE portion of your empire to foreign tribes/Barbarians.
Having certain improvements and/or Social Engineering traits could increase/decrease your chance of falling into a Dark Age, and being near a civ that has fallen into a dark age might give you a VERY small chance of falling into one yourself.
The effect I could see for a dark age is the loss of X% of your total techs for that age ONLY! In addition, your research and production output drops by X%. The X would be related to the 'Strength' of the dark age-similar to the strength of a plague. The stronger the dark age, though, the shorter its length-and vice versa!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

Oh and, just for the record, I think it would be 'FUN' to try and win a game after going through a dark age-it would add a greater amount of CHALLENGE. Also, it would prevent this rather boring scenario of 'once in front, ALWAYS in front'! Dark Ages would make a great way of REALLY making a game more interesting-shaking things up, as it were !

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

Originally posted by Pounder
Maybe I should withdraw the request for dark ages and ask that anarchy be editable for duration and also expand on what may trigger anarchy.

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One obvious suggestion for an additional anarchy trigger would be the fall of your capitol. Many people have complained that that should have bigger consequences, rather than having the capitol just instantly switch to a different city. It would be realistic if it took a number of turns before the government was re-established somewhere else (especially in ancient times). Naturally, the Forbidden Palace could prevent this by instantly becoming your new capitol.

Much of the knowledge lost to the Western World when Rome fell was kept intact by Arab scholars. When the Spanish recaptured some Moorish cities in Spain, they recovered some of the "lost" knowledge.
Any thoughts on putting that into the game?- "When you're in the Dark Ages, conquering a city of a more advanced nation helps you recover tech." I do not mean the Civ I & II idea of "every city you capture gives you a free tech"- I'm only referring to recovering "lost" techs in the Dark Ages.

Originally posted by Pook
Much of the knowledge lost to the Western World when Rome fell was kept intact by Arab scholars. When the Spanish recaptured some Moorish cities in Spain, they recovered some of the "lost" knowledge.
Any thoughts on putting that into the game?- "When you're in the Dark Ages, conquering a city of a more advanced nation helps you recover tech." I do not mean the Civ I & II idea of "every city you capture gives you a free tech"- I'm only referring to recovering "lost" techs in the Dark Ages.

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You should only be able to regain a tech that you lost provided that this civ has it.

I am still not a fan of the Dark Ages concept but it is up to you guys to convince me to change my thinking. So go for it.

Well, actually that is part of MY point! Dark Ages are only truly devestating if either you are the most advanced civ at the time it occurs OR if you are not very friendly with the most advanced civ of the time!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

A few ideas:
Have dark ages strike cultral groups rather than just single civs.
Rather than completely random have dark ages linked to science and happieness e.g. My civ is producing exceptionally low science and population contains many unhappy people, either randomly lets say a 1/100 chance per turn or on a change of government (lets say a 1/2 chance) a dark age will break out.

In 1200BC there were several Civilized areas in southern europe and the mid-east that were overrun by barbarians moving south, apparantly for survival and not conquest. This was because of an extended cooling/winter that lasted almost 10 years. Some think that a comet past very close to the earth, the earth acting as a dust and debris collector would have gathered this in the upper atmosphere creating a solar shade that could disrupt the climate for years. There was also the possiblity that larger debris form this comet impacted the earth. From 1200 BC on the Greeks were devastated during the peak of their bronze age, the Egyptians lost the ability to manage there slaves (releasing the Jews), Egyptians had to fight off several large invasions. The Assyrians had probably the best military technically at the time and did not suffer a dark age. Other Civs in the region like the Minoans, Hittites, Myceneans were overrun and destroyed.

This was all caused by one event. Might also explain parts of the bible regarding Moses and the sun being blocked and the freakish storms, etc...

Warpstorm is right, Dark Ages used to be in but were taken out 'cause they weren't fun.

What's fun about the RNG just deciding that your empire instantly produces half as much as it used to for no reason at all? Golden Ages can be planned and prepared for in advance. A Dark Age would only serve to frustrate most players.

Just give us the option in the editor!!! This would make the anti-Darkagers satisfied and everyone wins.

Dark ages should be implemented but should also, with careful management be avoided. Heres my idea:
Dark Ages + Stagnation-
Triggered by low cultural and or scientific output with some form of event e.g. civil war or revolution, normally this can be seen far enought ahead for a dark age (loss of several techs, culture and no science or culture generated, 7-15 turns) to be averted but for stagnation (5-10 turns no cultral or scientific output) to instead occur.

I agree with Mr Black. Just like C3:C plagues and volcanoes, you should be able to turn off negative events, like dark ages and civil wars, in the editor. That way we're ALL HAPPY !!!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.