CC#2 Investigation Thread ~ The People versus Epimethius

Black_Hole

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Epimethius has been charged with breaking Article N, by switching two city names around. This CC has been filed anonymously.

Here is the accusation post:
I, An anonymous citizen, will file a Citizen Complaint against the City Naming Office and Epimethius.

He has broken article N which says all rights not decscribed in the constitution are the right of every citizen. Since the constitution says nothing about city names, it is presumed each citizen has the right to name a city. However Epimethius as shown below has switched city names around. Also note, this is not the first time he has messed up in the citizen naming office.

Note: Since this is a bit long, the important information has been bolded.

Evidence:
1.
Article N said:
Article N: Rights reserved to the people As provided by Article A of this constitution, all actions not forbidden by forum rules, or by this Constitution, are presumed to be within the right of every citizen. Actions prescribed by this Constitution may be substituted by other similar actions, provided such substitution lies within the spirit of these rules.

2.
360 AD TC instructions said:
City Naming Office Instructions

Eridu should immediately be renammed Nihilon
Any city founded or captured should also be renamed with the next name in this order. This is copied from the City Name Registry. If this list is not enough, then simply continue from there.

1. Doomsville
2. Baldur's Gate
3. Ominato
4. Kagemusha
5. Drachenfels
6. Fishpond if near a lake or Duckburg is anywhere else.

Rome should not be renamed. Should it be captured a poll on the matter of its name will be held.
Link : http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2227129&postcount=5

NOTICE how this list deviates from Citizen Registry List:

3.
Citizen Registry said:
Babbler
Msz4
Provolution
Annatar
Ankka
Link: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2057688&postcount=2

4.
610 AD instruction thread said:
-Ravenna will be renamed Port Solema, by request of Babbler.
-Hispalis will be renamed Ominato, by request of msz4.
-Viroconium will be renamed Kagemusha, by request of Provolution.

-Rome will not be renamed, as is tradition with wonder sites and former capitals. A poll will be held on what to rename it, if anything.

-TBD (Neo-Neapolis) will be renamed Drachenfels, by request of Annatar.
-TBD 2 (North Corrino) will be renamed Duckburg, by request of Ankka.
Link: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2253652&postcount=5

Notice, Vironicum was not conquered at that time he posted instructions, it was conquered 590 AD.

Alphabethically, this would be:

Hispalis 570 BC founded, conquered 450 AD
Neo Neapolis, 490 AD founded,
North Corrino, 520 AD founded
Ravenna, 950 BC founded, conquered before 440 AD
Vironicum, 150 AD founded, conquered 590 AD

The above information shows that Virconium was conquored after Neo Neapolis

This is how is should be:

Ravenna 440 AD conquest (babbler) Port Solema
Hispalis 450 AD conquest (msz4) Ominato
Neo Neapolis 490 AD (Provolution) Kagemushab
"North Corrino" 520 AD (Annatar) Drachenfels
Viroconum 590 AD conquest (Ankka) Duckburg

This means, as proven by the Citizen Registry list, compared to various chatlogs and screenies, not to mention saves, as well as Epimethius own instructions, that his bias had lead the named city to be dislocated to the corrupt edge of Japanatica.
Kagemusha should have been where Drachenfels is now, not the other way around. All I want with this trial is to have Epimethius proven for obvious misconduct in handling the simplest of the simplest tasks, either to extreme incompetence, or by motivated intent to harm a political rival.

Thank-You,
Concerned Citizen

Notice: The judiciary will not tolerate anyone posting who they think the accuser is, if the mods would be so inclined to delete/edit out posts that name the accuser, this is so the accuser has the full rights of article a.
Also please, flaming is not nessecary.


The discussion is open to all citizens now.
 
I plead not guilty, as this was an accident of no legal or other consequence.

As for the Evidence:

Exhibit 1

Article N says the plaintiff has a right to Article A rights, but no where specifies what those rights are. They are specified in Article A, and do not include having a city named by their request.

Exhibit 2:

As you can see, I did get it right the first time in my advice.

Exhibit 3:

This matches exhibit 2.

Exhibit 4:

The instructions applied to cities already conquered, because my earlier instructions (which were shown to be correct) were for some reason not followed at the time. In writing the instructions I put the cities in presumed order of capture: Ravenna, being closest to our troops; Hispalis, being right after, and Viroconium, being way off in some desert. I then listed the new cities founded that turn that had been named TBD: Neo-Neapolis, which I knew was first, and N. Corrino. Having done that I simply took names from the citizens registry and assigned them to the list, presuming that the TBDs were founded after Viroconium was captured. That's why the order in the registry and the order in the instructions are the same.

Because I gave good instructions before the chat when it was conquered, this is actually a failure on the part of the president, who should have renamed it then. I came back and guessed the order of conquest, appearantly wrongly.

"This means, as proven by the Citizen Registry list, compared to various chatlogs and screenies, not to mention saves, as well as Epimethius own instructions, that his bias had lead the named city to be dislocated to the corrupt edge of Japanatica."-Anonymous, Citizen Complaint

There is absolutely no reason to believe that I did this maliciously. Previously when I didn't like a name I tried to change it, leave it off the list, etc. But here, I put it in the right place the first time, but the second time misplaced it. If I had actually wanted to get rid of the name, it never would have made the first at all. I had also indicated that I like Japanese names, and Kagemusha obviously sounds a lot more Japenese than Drachensburg.

"Kagemusha should have been where Drachenfels is now, not the other way around. All I want with this trial is to have Epimethius proven for obvious misconduct in handling the simplest of the simplest tasks, either to extreme incompetence, or by motivated intent to harm a political rival."-Anonymous, Citizen Complaint

I am surprised that the plaintiff doesn't want justice, but rather to simply have the court condemn me. Were I in his/her position I think I'd want the city names swiched. However the plaintiff is instead simply content with my being officially declared incompetant or biased. I offer this as proof of this mistake having absolutely no harmful effects. I also think this is a bit strange.... ;)

In conclusion, no citizen has a constitutional right to a name, the city naming office does not have a constitutional right to give it, and there is no reason why this should be in a court at any moment, much less now, when it could easily be dealt this by simply complaining to the City Naming Office like most people do. Even if the above were constitutional, it still remains that absolutely no harm, legal or otherwise, was done.

As for sentencing, I'd like to request in advance, on behalf of the plaintiff, that the cities retain their names, but that I be forced to have a shameful rank title referring to my incompetance. Thus justice shall be done. If I am found guilty, of course. ;)
 
From the Office of The Judge Advocate

As ravensfire has not posted with 24 hours, he has given up his right to a reserved post.
This discussion is now offically open to all citizens.

As for Epimethius: :nono:
You can only post in this thread once for 24 hours. As for the CC being dismissed: have you read the court procedures?!? The accused and Public Defender have to right to post in this thread first, but they give up that right after 24 hours, I fail to see how that dismisses the case.
 
From the Office of the Judge Advocate

I am bring forth new evidence.
Epimethius has not followed the WOTP.

As you can see elected officals cannot break the WOTP:

Article J. Elected officials must plan and act according to the will
of the people. The will of the people will be determined
through discussion and polls, formal or informal. If pertinent
discussion is done outside the scope of the DG forums, then it must
be documented in the Turnchat Instruction Thread 6 hours
prior to the commencement of the turnchat by the appropriate
leader.

However Epimethius is not elected, but as shown in article D:
Article D. The Executive branch is responsible for determining
and implementing the will of the People. It is headed
by the President who shall be the primary Designated
Player. The President shall take direction from a
council of leaders and from other elected and appointed
officials via the turnchat instruction thread. The President
shall be tasked with control of worker actions.
1. The Minister of Domestic Affairs shall be
responsible for all domestic initiatives, worker allocation,
as well as the distribution of funds, as prescribed by law.
2. The Minister of Foreign Affairs shall be responsible
for matters involving treaties with foreign nations,
as prescribed by law.
3. The Minister of Defense shall be responsible for all
military strategy and troop activities, as
prescribed by law.
4. The Minister of Trade shall be responsible for all
trade, domestic and foreign, and the use of resources,
as perscibed by law.
5. The Minister of Science shall be responsible for all tech
acquisition, as prescribed by law.
6. The Minister of Culture shall be responsible for the construction
of wonders, as well as the analysis and maintenance of cultural
borders. This official shall also be responsible for monitoring
Japanatica's cultural level against that of all rival nations.

The TCIT(Turn Chat Instruction Thread) is for elected/nominated people of which Epimethius is none. However I believe that if Epimethius posts in the TCIT, then he must follow the WOTP, which he did not.
 
Now to respond to Epimethius:

Epimethius said:
I plead not guilty, as this was an accident of no legal or other consequence.

As for the Evidence:

Exhibit 1

Article N says the plaintiff has a right to Article A rights, but no where specifies what those rights are. They are specified in Article A, and do not include having a city named by their request.
Article N also says citizens have to rights to anything not forbidden by forum rules or the constitution. Nowhere in the constitution says citizens can't name a city each.

Exhibit 2:

As you can see, I did get it right the first time in my advice.
But you still changed them

Exhibit 3:

This matches exhibit 2.
And my answer matches above ;)

Exhibit 4:

The instructions applied to cities already conquered, because my earlier instructions (which were shown to be correct) were for some reason not followed at the time. In writing the instructions I put the cities in presumed order of capture: Ravenna, being closest to our troops; Hispalis, being right after, and Viroconium, being way off in some desert. I then listed the new cities founded that turn that had been named TBD: Neo-Neapolis, which I knew was first, and N. Corrino. Having done that I simply took names from the citizens registry and assigned them to the list, presuming that the TBDs were founded after Viroconium was captured. That's why the order in the registry and the order in the instructions are the same.

Because I gave good instructions before the chat when it was conquered, this is actually a failure on the part of the president, who should have renamed it then. I came back and guessed the order of conquest, appearantly wrongly.

"This means, as proven by the Citizen Registry list, compared to various chatlogs and screenies, not to mention saves, as well as Epimethius own instructions, that his bias had lead the named city to be dislocated to the corrupt edge of Japanatica."-Anonymous, Citizen Complaint

There is absolutely no reason to believe that I did this maliciously. Previously when I didn't like a name I tried to change it, leave it off the list, etc. But here, I put it in the right place the first time, but the second time misplaced it. If I had actually wanted to get rid of the name, it never would have made the first at all. I had also indicated that I like Japanese names, and Kagemusha obviously sounds a lot more Japenese than Drachensburg.

"Kagemusha should have been where Drachenfels is now, not the other way around. All I want with this trial is to have Epimethius proven for obvious misconduct in handling the simplest of the simplest tasks, either to extreme incompetence, or by motivated intent to harm a political rival."-Anonymous, Citizen Complaint

I am surprised that the plaintiff doesn't want justice, but rather to simply have the court condemn me. Were I in his/her position I think I'd want the city names swiched. However the plaintiff is instead simply content with my being officially declared incompetant or biased. I offer this as proof of this mistake having absolutely no harmful effects. I also think this is a bit strange.... ;)

In conclusion, no citizen has a constitutional right to a name, the city naming office does not have a constitutional right to give it, and there is no reason why this should be in a court at any moment, much less now, when it could easily be dealt this by simply complaining to the City Naming Office like most people do. Even if the above were constitutional, it still remains that absolutely no harm, legal or otherwise, was done.

As for sentencing, I'd like to request in advance, on behalf of the plaintiff, that the cities retain their names, but that I be forced to have a shameful rank title referring to my incompetance. Thus justice shall be done. If I am found guilty, of course. ;)

So you are basically saying you made another "mistake"?
If you look in the CNO thread, this is definetly not the first time you have made a so called "mistake"

And this does cause harm, as you can see in the CNO thread, you claimed no one cares about city names, but many people countered that and said they did, so it does matter to those people.

As for your punishment, impeachment from the CNO would be the proper thing to do, not a stupid warning/tag saying "incompetent"
 
Can we switch city names and make everyone happy? I don't get the point of this. Epimetheus made a mistake. Mistakes happen. And they're easily fixable - so can't we just swap city names??
 
Ginger_Ale said:
Can we switch city names and make everyone happy? I don't get the point of this. Epimetheus made a mistake. Mistakes happen. And they're easily fixable - so can't we just swap city names??
well guess what, thats up to epimethius...
he has too much unchecked power, all that someone can do if they believe he is wrong is to CC him, which was done
also the accuser does not wish to drop the case for any reason whatsoever
 
No, I haven't read the court procedures. I have a lawyer. It's his job to do that. :p

I would recommend that, except that the anonymous citizen has instead requested for me to be officially declared incompetant. Normally if something like this happens I ask for it to be fixed in the instructions or if the players even care. And if I didn't notice, I have a thread where such complaints can be filed. No action was taken until now, and there still isn't actually any effort being made to take action. Basically, the situation is fine, but the plaintiff wishes for me to be punished anyway. :p

Article N also says citizens have to rights to anything not forbidden by forum rules or the constitution. Nowhere in the constitution says citizens can't name a city each.

On that basis we all have right to free pie. Where's my pie?

The right to a city name is not guaranteed in the consitution, and thus it can't exactly hold up in court. Besides, both players got their city names as requested. So its a mute point.

So you are basically saying you made another "mistake"?
If you look in the CNO thread, this is definetly not the first time you have made a so called "mistake"


Those mistakes were all caught at the time (unlike this), and all fixed (which is not being asked here). They were all on purpose, and obviously so (I don't think I ever said "oops" when I tried to get more Japanese and geographical names). Here its perfectly obvious what happened was a clear mistake, especially since the name was itself Japanese, unlike the one it was swiched with. I've explained how the mistake was made.

And this does cause harm, as you can see in the CNO thread, you claimed no one cares about city names, but many people countered that and said they did, so it does matter to those people.

Yes, and in all those cases someone complained before they were even acted on and insisted they were fixed. In this case the citizen complained months later, and didn't even ask for it to be fixed. Usually when something causes harm you don't sit on it for months. You try to fix it immediately, which what all the victims of the intentional changes did.

To sum up the comparison: Those cases were intentional, public, obvious, non-malicious (if you look I did them to make the names fit the civilization and geography), noticed immediately, and fixed. This case was unintnetional, not announced, barely noticable, clearly accidental (I explained how I made the mistake, what more do you want?), not noticed until months later, and, by all accounts, just fine.

However I believe that if Epimethius posts in the TCIT, then he must follow the WOTP, which he did not.

I didn't? Where didn't I? I assigned names according to what I assumed was chronological order. The People never told me to do it that way. The people never requested what city they should get. I made a mistake that had about as much to do with the Will of the People as this case has to do with the constitution: none what so ever.

As an unelected, extraconstitutional, organizational official, my instructions have no power at all, and, logically, nor do the people over me (though I did actually have some polls, anyway). I cannot be blamed for this mistake constitutionally, because I have no real power.

However I believe that if Epimethius posts in the TCIT, then he must follow the WOTP, which he did not.

I suggest you consult with your client, since all he/she wants is "to have Epimethius proven for obvious misconduct in handling the simplest of the simplest tasks, either to extreme incompetence, or by motivated intent to harm a political rival." He/She never said anything about wanting me thrown out (not that I'd mind, I'm trying to leave the game) or fixing the city names.

he has too much unchecked power, all that someone can do if they believe he is wrong is to CC him, which was done

I don't have any power. I have no constitutional power. My instructions have no power. I haven't used any power for ages. When I did it didn't change anything important anyway. And when I abused it, things were set right quickly. That statement was laughable.

As I see it, if the plaintiff doesn't even consider the issue serious enough to want it fixed, why should I receive any punishment for it whatsoever?
 
Epimethius said:
No, I haven't read the court procedures. I have a lawyer. It's his job to do that. :p

I would recommend that, except that the anonymous citizen has instead requested for me to be officially declared incompetant. Normally if something like this happens I ask for it to be fixed in the instructions or if the players even care. And if I didn't notice, I have a thread where such complaints can be filed. No action was taken until now, and there still isn't actually any effort being made to take action. Basically, the situation is fine, but the plaintiff wishes for me to be punished anyway. :p

Article N also says citizens have to rights to anything not forbidden by forum rules or the constitution. Nowhere in the constitution says citizens can't name a city each.

On that basis we all have right to free pie. Where's my pie?

The right to a city name is not guaranteed in the consitution, and thus it can't exactly hold up in court. Besides, both players got their city names as requested. So its a mute point.

So you are basically saying you made another "mistake"?
If you look in the CNO thread, this is definetly not the first time you have made a so called "mistake"


Those mistakes were all caught at the time (unlike this), and all fixed (which is not being asked here). They were all on purpose, and obviously so (I don't think I ever said "oops" when I tried to get more Japanese and geographical names). Here its perfectly obvious what happened was a clear mistake, especially since the name was itself Japanese, unlike the one it was swiched with. I've explained how the mistake was made.

And this does cause harm, as you can see in the CNO thread, you claimed no one cares about city names, but many people countered that and said they did, so it does matter to those people.

Yes, and in all those cases someone complained before they were even acted on and insisted they were fixed. In this case the citizen complained months later, and didn't even ask for it to be fixed. Usually when something causes harm you don't sit on it for months. You try to fix it immediately, which what all the victims of the intentional changes did.

To sum up the comparison: Those cases were intentional, public, obvious, non-malicious (if you look I did them to make the names fit the civilization and geography), noticed immediately, and fixed. This case was unintnetional, not announced, barely noticable, clearly accidental (I explained how I made the mistake, what more do you want?), not noticed until months later, and, by all accounts, just fine.

However I believe that if Epimethius posts in the TCIT, then he must follow the WOTP, which he did not.

I didn't? Where didn't I? I assigned names according to what I assumed was chronological order. The People never told me to do it that way. The people never requested what city they should get. I made a mistake that had about as much to do with the Will of the People as this case has to do with the constitution: none what so ever.

As an unelected, extraconstitutional, organizational official, my instructions have no power at all, and, logically, nor do the people over me (though I did actually have some polls, anyway). I cannot be blamed for this mistake constitutionally, because I have no real power.

However I believe that if Epimethius posts in the TCIT, then he must follow the WOTP, which he did not.

I suggest you consult with your client, since all he/she wants is "to have Epimethius proven for obvious misconduct in handling the simplest of the simplest tasks, either to extreme incompetence, or by motivated intent to harm a political rival." He/She never said anything about wanting me thrown out (not that I'd mind, I'm trying to leave the game) or fixing the city names.

he has too much unchecked power, all that someone can do if they believe he is wrong is to CC him, which was done

I don't have any power. I have no constitutional power. My instructions have no power. I haven't used any power for ages. When I did it didn't change anything important anyway. And when I abused it, things were set right quickly. That statement was laughable.

As I see it, if the plaintiff doesn't even consider the issue serious enough to want it fixed, why should I receive any punishment for it whatsoever?
You always say you make clear mistakes, if you make this many mistakes should you be doing this job?
If you post in the TCIT, you have to be accountable for it, otherwise I am going to go spam that thread and nothing will happen to me.

I will answer rest of this later, I have important stuff to do rather than counter your nonsense
 
Objection, insult!

I was given the right to post in that thread, just as I was given the right to give instructions and exist as an office, by a court that preceded you. But as an unelected official, I have no power besides organization, so, though I could post there, my instructions were not necessarily to be carried out. And every makes mistakes, which shouldn't be held against them, especially when the mistakes don't matter constitutionally or otherwise.
 
What's the point of this? It happened 2 months ago and now someone files a complaint? Especially an ANONOYMOUS someone? If they want to "justice" they should step out from the shadows and openly file a CC, not hide behind a veil. Neither Provo or whoever the other party is complained when this happened, so what's the point now? And what law did Epi break exactly, the CNO is not dictated by elections, the WOTP, or the Constitution. It is a citizen's self governing volunteer duty.

What would the punishment be for this anyways? This CC is pointless, as pointless as the one filed against Chieftess.
 
blackheart said:
What's the point of this? It happened 2 months ago and now someone files a complaint? Especially an ANONOYMOUS someone? If they want to "justice" they should step out from the shadows and openly file a CC, not hide behind a veil. Neither Provo or whoever the other party is complained when this happened, so what's the point now? And what law did Epi break exactly, the CNO is not dictated by elections, the WOTP, or the Constitution. It is a citizen's self governing volunteer duty.

What would the punishment be for this anyways? This CC is pointless, as pointless as the one filed against Chieftess.
lets not bring past CCs into this,
the accuser didnt want to reveal himself because of the flaming that would start, and i guarantee it would

the question is not what the point of the cc is but, was a crime committed?
ask yourself that question, not "do i care about this cc?"
 
From the Office of the Judge Advocate

Important New Evidence:
Epimethius was actually appointed by Nolodan(domestic advisor) in term 1, and he was confirmed by the president(daveshack).
So technically he is responsible for following the WOTP.


You guys say this CC has no meaning but look at it, not epimethius has to come forward and try to explain why he did this, otherwise its just another time his office goes unchecked.
 
As a citizen I would like to present the following evidence. towards the end Epithemus clearly resigns as head of the CNO. Though he may have been stoned when he did it I believe this should be considered in the event of a conviction, not in the trial itself since alleged prior "bad acts" commited while in office should be considered to prevent violations of the constitution by lame duck officials
 
mhcarver said:
As a citizen I would like to present the following evidence. towards the end Epithemus clearly resigns as head of the CNO. Though he may have been stoned when he did it I believe this should be considered in the event of a conviction, not in the trial itself since alleged prior "bad acts" commited while in office should be considered to prevent violations of the constitution by lame duck officials
however according to his first post in the CNO thread, the office is currently operating and he is currently in charge of it.... it matters how much that resignation was determined to be valid
 
Black_Hole said:
the question is not what the point of the cc is but, was a crime committed?
ask yourself that question, not "do i care about this cc?"

I'm asking myself, and I would have to say no. This CC was filed 2 months late. Epi didn't violate the WOTP when this incident happened, since no one filed a CC when this happened. So what law did he break?
 
Oh yeah, I did quit. I figured I'd just slacked off completely, but not officially quit. In that case this has even less grounds. In fact, correct me if I'm wrong, but it has absolutely no grounds at all.

And no, I didn't commit a crime. I made a mistake while doing a job that has no power or obligations.

And I've explained why I did it, many, many times. I did it on accident. Now I suggest you start listening, and maybe we can ask why no one cared until now, and still doesn't actually care beyond getting the court to slander me officially.
 
Yes you did break the law, you were an appointed offical, your tcit instructoins were actually legal and you made a "mistake", this must be held accountable.

Blackheart: Are you saying he didn't break the WOTP because this was filed 2 monthes later?

BTW he broke article N, article J, and traditions, but who cares about traditions anymore, they dont matter for anything do they?

I would also like to ask why it matters the CC was filed late?
Most crimes arent filed the instant they are committed, evidence must be taken, or maybe new evidence just came forward, or maybe someone was looking back and found this out...
 
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