Clash in Mongolia

pawpaw

Now Farve-Proof
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Ever since the 1904-1905 Russo-Japanese war tensions had run high between Russia and Japan in the far east. The installing of the new Soviet Union saw no change in this. Japanese intervention in the civil war and attempts to undermine the loyalty of the central asia territories were always in the minds of the Soviet government. Between 1932-1939 there were hundreds of "incidents" along the 3000 mile boarder. Several events would escalate these tensions. The 1936 Anti-Comintern pact between Japan and Germany fed Stalins fears of a 2 front war. The Soviets quickly signed a defense treaty with Mongolia ( a Soviet satillite state ). The next year further Japanese inroads into china led Stalin to begin strengthening the far east army. An open clash of arms actually broke out on the Amur river ( the boarder of Soviet Union and Manchukoa ) with Soviet troops easily pushed off 2 small islands on the river.

The Japanese Kwantung army believed they could exploit several "preceived"
weaknesses of the Soviet position.
1] all supplies to the far east army came over a single 10,000 mile long rail line ( trans siberian railroad ) from european russia.
2] Stalin's purge of the officer corps
3] the performance of Soviet troops at Amur island
4] Japanese intelligence estimates of only 2 Soviet divisions available to defend mongolia.

In the struggles between the Japanese military and the civilian governments during the 1920-1930's the most radical elements of the military were in the Kwantung army. They were of the "strike north" wing of the army--take China, take Russia, take what we need! The strike "south wing" wanted to go after the Dutch indies, British India, ect.. They often disobeyed orders from Tokyo or bent them to suit their needs. In the late 1930's they decided the Soviet presence in Mongolia and apparent weakness demanded action. The kwantung army was raised from 4 divisions to 9. Japanese intelligence failed to note a simular Soviet increase from 6 divisions to 20.( Japanese intelligence failure would be a recuring theme in the war ).

Japanese Kwantung army 1939

Japan had learned the lessions of 1918 well, Japanese infantry were among the best trained infantry of the time, trained to attack and suceded in trench warfare, hand to hand combat and the doctrine of attack. The problem was 1939 was not 1918, The Japanese army as a whole was not modern in either equipment or tactics. Japanese Armoured forces were weak in numbers and design to western powers, indeed no armoured formation existed tiil one was " thrown " together during the war. Japanese artillery was WW I era vintage and there was none or little mortorized transportation for troops or supply Ex.-during the days leading up to the climatic battle at Khalkl Gol, Japanese soldiers were either carrying supplies by hand or carts, the Soviets had over 4000 trucks bring theirs up to the front from the nearest railroads.

In 1938 at Changfeng hill ( near where the Soviet Union, Korea and Manchukoa meet ) the Japanese decided to test the Soviet again. The Imperial 19th division seized the heights in a night attack and held off counterattacks for 12 days. Japanese lose: 200 killed Soviet loses: 500 killed. As at Amur the Japanese read into the poor Soviet showing as weakness to be exploited.

On May 28th of 1939 the Japanese would get the excuse they were waiting for. A clash between Mongolian ( Russian satilites ) and Manchukuan (Japanese ) cavalry in the disputed Nomonhan sector provided a reason to occupy the area. General Komatsubara of the 23rd division sent the " Yamagate " brigade ( elite Japanese units were often named after their commander ) minus its artillery and anti tank weapons ( expected only Manchukuan 's ) to seize Nomonhan village. When they got there they were routed by Soviet Bt-7 tanks to which they had no defense. The Yamagate brigade left over a regiment of dead behind. In spite of the set back the Japanese decided these was a situation they could win based on logistics. The Japanese had a railroad spur that ran up to 60 miles of Nomonham, the nearest Soviet one was 434 miles away. The Kwantung command ordered bombers to bomb Soviet airbases inside the Soviet Union at Tameas and Bain Tuma ( against direct orders from Tokyo NOT to widen the war ) and soon Soviet bombers were ranging over Japanese lines retaliating.

comparisons
Soviet tanks
cannon-----armour
Bt-7--45mm--32mm
Bt-5--45mm--13mm
T-26--45mm--15mm
Su-76--122mm howitzer
Japanese tanks
cannon---------------------armour
89B-------57mm howitzer
Type 94-machine gun only-12mm
Type 95--45mm-----------12mm
Type 97--45mm-----------33mm (only handful in operation )

The Soviets had the advantage of quanity and quality.

As both sides marshalled their troops, Stalin sent a new commander to the far east army, Georgi Zhukov. Arriving in early June he immediately saw the threat to the trans siberian railroad and requested reinforcements. Soon 500 more tanks, 500 aircraft and 50 infantry and cavalry battalions were heading east. Before it arrived, the Japanese attempted to break the Soviet position along the Halkla river. An attack on Bain heights on July 2nd by the newly formed Japanese mechanized brigade is unsucessfull and thrown back by counterattacks by the 11th tank brigade and 7th armour brigade. The Japanese anti tank guns ( mostly 37mm ) are almost useless and they use molotov cocktails instead. The Japanese bring up 112 artillery pieces to pound Bain Heights into surrender, but the Japanese artillery-75mm and 100mm howitzers are out ranged by the newer Soviet 122mm and 150mm pieces. An attack on July 23rd is easily beaten off. Having lost the initiative, the Japanese begain to dig in.

AS of August 10th:
Soviet-----------------------------Japanese
artillery-542.....................................318
tanks-488........................................130
planes-515.......................................225
and a 3-2 edge in foot soldiers.

Early in the conflict the Japanese had air superiority with their Ki-27 fighters enjoying a 4-1 kill ratio. The Japanese pilots with their experience from China ruled the skys. This all changed with the coming of the Soviet I-16 fighters, manned by veterans of the Spanish civil war. Japanese loses that ran at 10% in May rose to 50% by September. Japan had lost control of the air.

comparisons
Soviet
speed...........armament
I-16 304mph .. 4 machine guns
I-153 280mph.. 4 machine guns

Japanese
speed..........armament
A5m 270mph..2 machine guns
Ki-10 248mph.. 2 machine guns
Ki-27 265mph.. 2 machine guns

The I-16 with its armoured cockpit could take considerable punishment from the lightly armed Japanese fighters.

By mid August Zhukov was ready, red army units were manuvered into position but made no threatening moves. Broadcasting in an older ( most certainly broken ) code he informs Moscow he is a month away from offensive actions. Soviet commanders are not informed of the attack till 3 hours before.

The Kwantung army is dug in a fortified position with bunkers and trenches. Their flanks are protected only by Manchukuan cavalry and have NO reserve units.

The Soviet army has the 6th Mongolian cavalry division,7th armoured brigade and 1/2 the 11th tank brigade on its left, 36th motorized and 82nd rifle divisions in the center. The 57th rifle, 8th Mongolian cavalry divisions and 1/2 the 11th tank brigade on the right. The 9th armour brigade, 6th tank brigade and 212 airborne are in reserve.

On August 20th a massive Soviet artillery bombardment began on the Japanese position. Soviet bombers bomb support and communication centers. armoured forces on both flanks push past the Manchukuan cavalry and into the Japanese rear. It was blitzkreig--but 33 days before the Germans in Poland. On August 24th the 9th armour brigade and 7th tank brigade meet behind the main Japanese lines--they are encircled. On the 26th the Soviets beat off a weak attempt to break the trapped troops out. The Soviets turn inward and crush the helpless infantry. The Kwantung army loses 18,000 killed, 20,000 wounded out of 60,00 men engaged. Zhukov had achieved a Soviet cannae.

To deter Soviet advances into Manchukoa the Japanese rush 6 fighter squadrons from China to the front. Throu out September air battles of up 200 planes at a time raged over the Manchukuan/Mongolian boarder. With the Kwantung army temporary unable to hold the Soviets back, Japan has no real choice but to seek terms. The Soviets too want terms, in Europe the Germans are racing across Poland and the Soviets fear they will lose their share of their agreement with them. By August 31st, Zhukov's tanks were already on trains heading west to Poland.

At the time it seemed unlikely that the Soviets could beat the Japanese, but hind sight shows us the Soviets had several key advantages. The Soviets enjoyed both numbers and design superiority in aircraft and tanks. The more modern Soviet transporation system kept theit troops supplied while the Japanese struggled. Finally the Soviets had a huge intelligence advantage--a mole. Richard Sorge was a Russian/German born member of the German embassy in Tokyo. But Sorges loyalty was to the motherland-not the fatherland. As a German attache and ally to Japan he freely came and went from the Japanese war councils and routinely sends Zhukov the Japanese order of battle, planned operations, units involved,ect... their strengths and weaknesses were known to Zhukov.

The disgrace of the " strike north" wing of the Japanese military would let the " strike south " faction control policy. Their goals in the further would be to the south.

Russian Tanks: 1939

BT-5
BT-7
T-26

300px-Soviet_Tank_BT-5.jpg


240px-Bt7_3-1.jpg


305px-T26_11.jpg
 
Japanese Fighters: 1939

Ki-10
Ki-27
A5m


300px-Kawasaki_KI-10_Type_I_biplane.jpg


300px-Ki-27_2.jpg


300px-A5M_Claude.jpg


Russian Fighters: 1939

I-153
I-16

300px-I-153_2.jpg


i16_1.jpg
 
good read pawpaw.

Could you answer me a question which I've been wondering about. Why did the Japanese lag behind everyone else in terms of tank development? They had first rate infantry but it's always seemed to me as if their tanks never really cut it against Russian and American tanks.

edit: Companiero, that was potentially the oddest post I've ever read :lol:
 
steviejay said:
good read pawpaw.

Could you answer me a question which I've been wondering about. Why did the Japanese lag behind everyone else in terms of tank development? They had first rate infantry but it's always seemed to me as if their tanks never really cut it against Russian and American tanks.

edit: Companiero, that was potentially the oddest post I've ever read :lol:

On some VB forums you can delete your message after you post it. He was testing it I guess.

Anyways, great read. I wasn't even waware of these actions.
 
steviejay said:
Could you answer me a question which I've been wondering about. Why did the Japanese lag behind everyone else in terms of tank development? They had first rate infantry but it's always seemed to me as if their tanks never really cut it against Russian and American tanks.

The basic answer to this is that the Japanese didn't have the industrial base needed to turn out medium tanks in useful numbers. As an idicator of their industrial capacity at the time, in 1938 the Japanese only built about 4,000 trucks.
 
steviejay said:
good read pawpaw.

Could you answer me a question which I've been wondering about. Why did the Japanese lag behind everyone else in terms of tank development?

Till @ 1936 they really were not behind, the type 94 tankette was not that differant from the tankettes that most armies had, Germany was using the Mk I-light armour, machine gun only, British matilda I-slow, machine gun only, Russian christie tanks-fast but lightly armoured and armed.

But between 1937-1939 the western powers made big leaps foward that the Japanese failed too. German with the Mk III, the Russian Bt & T series lead to the T-34 (1940 ), British matilda II, French somua.. The west also begins to group theirs together into units to be used as units. The Germans, Russians, Italians, British all have armoured divisions or brigades. The Japanese keep theirs scattered among their infantry units.

One also has to look at enemies or enemies to come, they fought in China--mountains and rice fields, Korea-mountains and soon to be Indo-China, India, East Indies-all jungle area. None of these were prime tank country, nor did any of these opponents have tanks forces to fight. There was no " drive " to built up a 1st class tank force.
 
Good read, Pawpaw. This is often left behind in Western histories of WW II and its origins. A Japanese victory might have changed the outcome of WW II in Europe... Conversely, it is often ignored that while Soviet troops performed so poorly in Finland in 1939-40 Winter War, their victory over the Japanese at Khalkin Gol in 1939 was devastating and a hint of things to come in the Second World War. Zhukov deserves as much credit for learning the lessons of coordinated armed services (especially the tank and infantry corps.) as Guderian or Liddell Hart.

Could you answer me a question which I've been wondering about. Why did the Japanese lag behind everyone else in terms of tank development? They had first rate infantry but it's always seemed to me as if their tanks never really cut it against Russian and American tanks.

Others have answered well, but I think a critical factor was simply topography. With the exception of Manchuria (where after the non-aggression treaty with Moscow was fairly secure anyway), the Japanese armies dealt almost exclusively with terrains quite hostile to tank warfare - small rocky or volcanic islands and jungles. Tank doctrines developed in the West over the 20th century are based around concentration and strict coordination with other units, but the Pacific War's battlefields offered little room for maneuver and very little in the way of field of vision. A large tank would be impractical for them, both in being able to maneuver effectively and transport it to the battlefields. Where would they have put a tank corps. on Iwo Jima, both in terms of moving it around the island and that it would survive the American naval bombardments? And how many ships would it take to get it there? The average tank in Europe by 1945 was over 40 English tons, but the largest Japanese tank was barely 20, soaking wet. A tankette in a jungle was more effective...
 
It is not as if the Japanese had no tanks whatsoever..the ones they did were not those which would have given European and American tanks much of a fight, but they were useful against largely lightly armed infantry which they were fighting in the jungles of Indo-China and the Pacific. Initialy, this smaller tank doctrine was quite successful, esp against the Chinese and the Colonial armies in SE Asia, but failed when put to the real test with heavier machinery coming in from the West and East (from the US i.e.)
 
Very good read pawpaw! Also about a subject not known so well in the West...
 
But you think the Japanese would have taken the hint when Shermans and Matildas - medium tanks - were used by the Allies in the Pacific, although not nearly as extensively in Europe, but still. By the time the Soviets invaded in August of 1945 they were the gods of tanks and using tanks in battle, while the Japanese had only a handful of medium-heavy tanks and spgs, a good number of them prototypes/experimental. For some reason while their opponents were developing better tanks and using them more effectively the Japanese didn't forsee that they might be on the receiving end of them one day, or maybe they didn't care. I mean, what did the Japanese think the Americans would throw at them when they invaded the home islands? They couldn't get away with using light tanks and tankettes for ever...
 
I don't think they ever intended for the Americans to invade them, and by the time it looked as if they did, I dunno if they could have designed a heavy tank in time.
 
By 1943 onward ( due to submarine blockade ), the Japanese did not have the industry to build the numbers needed--aircraft and ships had priority. between 1940 -1945 the Japanese built 4424 tanks, the U.S. built 29,000 in 1943 alone.
 
steviejay said:
I don't think they ever intended for the Americans to invade them, and by the time it looked as if they did, I dunno if they could have designed a heavy tank in time.

There were several new designs after 1942, but they were still light tanks :confused:

Japanese Tanks: 1939


Type 94
Type 95
Type 97

250px-Type_94_TK_tankette.jpg


300px-Japanese_type_95_1.jpg


japanese_type_97_tank_sideview.jpg
 
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