ALC Game #7: Frederick/Germany

[Sisiutil]

All Leaders Challenge Game #7: Frederick/Germany

Pre-Game Thread

Round 0: 4000 BC
Round 1: to 3400 BC
Round 2: to 2920 BC
Round 3: to 975 BC
Round 4: to 50 AD
Round 5: to 720 AD
Round 6: to 1200 AD
Round 7: to 1530 AD
Round 8: to 1700 AD
Round 9, Part 1: to 1852 AD
Round 9, Part 2: to 1870 AD
Round 10, Part 1: to 1920 AD
Round 10, Part 2: to 1934 AD
Post-Mortem

The idea of the All Leaders Challenge is that I'm going to play a game with each of the Civ IV leaders--mostly the less popular ones--that I haven't tried before on my current difficulty level, Prince. With the help of all the posters who participate, I will attempt to make the most of the leader's traits, starting techs, and UU. Aside from the leader, the other game settings are kept constant, at their defaults, for the sake of comparison. I will post the saved game files, screenshots, and status reports here as the game progresses. Everyone then has a chance to chime in with their strategy ideas, or voice their frustration when I make a mistake.

Everyone is invited to offer opinions and advice, and make your own attempt at playing the same game. But if you do play a "shadow game", I kindly request that you refrain from posting spoilers--i.e. any facts or even hints about the map, opponents, and so on--before I'm there myself. I'm trying to play the game as authentically as possible.

In this ALC game, I'm playing as Frederick II the Great, leader of Germany.

Here are the initial game settings:

And the starting position:

In the pre-game thread (link at the top of this post), we talked about trying something different in this game. Specifically, we discussed the idea of building the Pyramids as early as possible--stone or no stone. Then I'd switch to Representation and run a specialist economy in an attempt to leverage Frederick's Great Person-generating Philosophical trait.

Wonder-wise, I'm going to give Stonehenge a miss thanks to the Creative trait, but a secondary goal will be the Parthenon for more Great People points. Several people have also pointed out the advantages of also building the Oracle for a Metal Casting slingshot, followed by a forge, an Engineer specialist, and a GE who gets used to complete the Pyramids.

I'm going to take my time playing and posting the start to get as much guidance with this unfamiliar (to me, at least) strategy as possible. I've built the Pyramids on Prince, and I've also run specialists, but I can't say I've tried to exploit their combined synergy in this way before. I usually rely on cottage spam and haven't tried to run the economy off specialists.

Based on futurehermit's thread on this strategy, I'll be researching Bronze Working first. Correct me if I'm wrong. The recommended first city build is Worker - Settler. Freddy starts with Mining, which is great for this strat.

Also based on that thread, the start looks promising. No stone--I didn't think I'd be that lucky--but there's cows, a river, lots of trees for chopping, hills for production, and grassland for cott--er--farms. There's even a luxury resource at 6 o'clock.

The only reason I can think of moving is to settle on a plains hill for the one extra hammer. The Pyramids are expensive and eve

 

[Cam_H]

No problem with your suggestion, but my first thought was the plains hill to the west. You'll have river-protection from the north (given you're 'south of the border'), and there looks like more hills in the fat-X. The cows may be your best tile for your first working citizen, so you need not rely on a border-pop to get them.

 

[carl corey]

It seems like a lot of mountains to the W. Not sure what's over the mountains. I agree with moving the Scout NE-SE, and I'd say, if you discover some more resources, go camping there, and maybe use the W hill for the second city (or third if you go for Copper first). As for working the cow tile, well, you ARE creative after all. You would expand to that very quickly, so that's not a problem.

I also agree that given what you want to accomplish Stonehenge is to be avoided. You have enough wonders to build as it is.

Edit: By the way, could you post the initial save for those who'd want to play a shaddow game? Thanks.

 

[Quotey]

I think you should settle in place. You get the fresh water bonus, and that means that the unhealthy bonus of the forge is invalidated (fresh water bonus is +1 health, right?). It also means you start RIGHT away, and you need to do that for Pyramids first. If you settle in place, there will be 5 tree tiles to chop, which could come in handy. Since your second build is a settler, you can scout out good second city places whilst getting STRAIGHT to work on your worker. The start needs to go fast, because you won't be growing in pop for a few turns.

 

[Killroyan]

Woohoo and we are of again. I would really love the specialist economy. I hope you can pull it off. Forgoing on the stonehenge is obvious. No need for it. I really like the oracle -> metal casting -> GE route but it is tricky if you ask me. Never seen it work so suprise me and teach me

Scouting NE and SE is the best course. Left side is all hills from what I can see so the hill to the NE might be good especially with the extra hammer. However you might be giving up 2 grassland hills for that.

 

[cabert]

You have a scout, use it!
2 moves is cool, i would go SW SW on the hill to see those West Mountains and the South coast (at least that's my fog guessing), then probably settle in place (if there is a gold or gem mine west, i would go for it).
tech? BW is good, but you need AH first. this cow is no good without it.

 

[bugstud]

did I miss it, or is the save not attached?

you have a fun dillemma trying to get the starting spot. crazy ideas include settling on the wine. if you're willing to waste 2 turns, going ne then either nw or se depending on how it shakes out with the scout and heading 2 w with the settler?

 

[cabert]

settling on the wine is indeed crazy!
not better than settling on any usual plain hill, and losing the bonus...

IMHO there is either copper, iron or horses in the fat cross from the initial position. I'm doing a wild guess, but the plain to the east looks like a bonus tile (horses). If it's not there, it's under one of those plain hills.
That's why i would settle in place and mine all those hills even before knowing where the copper is.

 

[Paul666]

I am really looking forward to this game, as I have not really run a specialist economy and tend to rely on cottages. The start looks good, and I would settle in place, but that reflects my cottage driven economy. The river plus the hills would make this a great city quickly. I would be tempted to settle in place, and see if a hut is revealed by the city, and go get it.

Looking at the hills and trees, I think you are near the southern end of your land mass, and you next 2 cities will be NE and NW of Berlin. (Man, the first turn is always like reading tea leaves.)

 

[cabert]

(Man, the first turn is always like reading tea leaves.)

so true

 

[Paul666]

If you settle in place, it would be nice if your next couple of cities were on the river for an instant trade network. I would scout the river first, and go NW, W; or NE, SE.

My research prediliction is always BW first, but Cabert has a point about AH. If you are committed to specialists, then AH makes some sense, but if you are gonna push for the pyramids, you would want to chop. Still you can never go wrong with Bronze working.

 

[cabert]

If you settle in place, it would be nice if your next couple of cities were on the river for an instant trade network. I would scout the river first, and go NW, W; or NE, SE.

My research prediliction is always BW first, but Cabert has a point about AH. If you are committed to specialists, then AH makes some sense, but if you are gonna push for the pyramids, you would want to chop. Still you can never go wrong with Bronze working.

You can't start the mids right now anyway, and if you wanted to tech in the mids direction, you should go straight to masonry.

the cow gives food and hammers
exactly what you need for the pyramids (direct hammers + food to work a plains mine)


not being industrious and not having stone is making the pyramids very hard to get, you 'll need all the hammers available + a second city to build units while you build them.

 

[Killroyan]

AH is necessary if you ask me for the pyramids as Cabert has already pointed out. You will need the food and the hammers.

And I do think that a little south is a coast. You can see the river delta in the south which often is present in a river close to the coast.

 

[carl corey]

Not sure it's really a delta. How does the starting point of the river look like? If it does look like that I'll bet it's a starting point, being near the mountains and all. Good catch though, I missed it the first time.

 

[Fetch]

AH is necessary if you ask me for the pyramids as Cabert has already pointed out. You will need the food and the hammers.

And I do think that a little south is a coast. You can see the river delta in the south which often is present in a river close to the coast.

Are you sure that's the river delta? It's on a hill which means it's probably the headwaters. EDIT: dang, carl beat me to it.

I too would LOVE to see a specalist economy at work... I tried it and it worked OK for me. This could be very interesting since Sisiutil knows a heckuva lot more about Civ than I do. It seems very doable, especially after reading the great article by futurehermit.

 

[cabert]

if it's the river's source, then it's still good to see where you are.
My opinion is to send one scout in a general south direction, build another to send in a general north direction, then a worker. (then a warrior, then a settler, then pyramids)

 

[Killroyan]

Thx for the headwaters, I didn't know how to call it. The headwaters/riverdelta does connect four tiles so it is either a start or an end (propably the first). But I always see a lot of these babies spawning near the coast with only 1 or 2 river tiles in between.

I do agree with Caberts build but first quick surrounding check. If there is stone near then GREAT!!

 

[Nares]

I suggest settling in place. It looks as though any Hills to the west are Plains Hills, which, given the relatively low food start, cannot be worked efficiently anyway. However, that is an awesome sight to build The Pyramids from, having solid early game production with just enough food, given the happiness cap.

Worker/AH first, so that you can Pasture the Cows ASAP, as they are a great tile. You start with Mining and Hunting, so I would suggest one of Agriculture, The Wheel, or Bronze Working next. You want to complete Masonry sometime around when your first Settler completes, so that you can get an early start on The Pyramids.

Going for a The Oracle -> The Pyramids gambit is more viable on Prince than it would be on Monarch or Emperor (where futurehermit is attmepting to apply his specialist strategy), The Pyramids come earlier by flat out constructing them. In this case, completing The Oracle would mean earlier Metal Casting (not necessarily bad, but rememeber, Forges are very expensive to non-Industrious civs, at slightly over 1/4 the cost of The Pyramids themselves), but more significantly, it would deny someone else The Oracle.

I'm personally of the opinion that the slingshot is unnecessary, as is The Parthenon, though the latter has a greater impact on the early-mid game. Metal Casting is purely a solid trade piece for Fredrick. More important than either The Oracle or The Parthenon is The Great Library.

EDIT: Scout the Plains Hill 2W of the Settler first, or alternatively, the Plains Hill 2W1S of the Settler, and see what pops up. Keeping multiple Hills would be nice, and, given the only excess food you have atm will be +4 (+2 from Cows, +2 from city), there's no real worry in exchanging a Grassland Hill for a Plains Hill.

 

[Elrohir]

Hey Sisiutil, I've been shadowing your games for awhile, but I don't think I've actually posted in them yet. Great stuff.

Ok, I would suggest explording with your scout first, before settling. No since wasting a good resource in your starting city just because you didn't see it. I would either move the scout directly east, onto the plains hill across the river, or southwest onto the cows, then onto the plains hill directly west of your settler. I tihnk the first option is better, as it will let you see much more of the fat cross for your capital, if you settle in place (Revealing two squares of your fat cross if you settle in place, as opposed to just one if you go the western route) but ultimately it's your call.

Don't keep us in suspense, update soon!

 

[NaZdReG]

because of the food needs the grasslands are better for you anyway. scout NE then E to see what you can, if it looks good settle on that hill NE. the hills to the east of that will make an awesome production site.

definately tech towards animal husbandry, but if you are going to slingshot you HAVE TO GET POTTERY or you wont be able to pop metal casting.

since that path might be unlikely, your better off just going AH then researching bronze working and masonry. let your 2nd city provide you with axemen to defend against the incoming barbs then spit out another settler while the capitol cranks out the pyramids through the plains hill and chopping. once your first worker sets down 2-3 farms you'll be set to get that done.

after researching masonry and starting that way you need to get writing done so you can get your scientists in order.

while setting up for the specialist econ you wont be switching to it till after the pyramids are built, hopefully you read my input in the other thread for the culture victory.. it will be this point in time where you have to choose scientists and conquest or artists for culture victory

good starting position best of luck!!

NaZ