Ties...

[obsolete]

ARggh. Lost a monarch game today because without fail, EVERY freiken time I built a wonder, an AI would just happen to have completed it on the same turn I did. And we all know what happens in that case.

I need to sit back and re-evaluate what the hell goes on here.

I assume either #1, all ties go to the AI by default.

Or #2, there is some sort of hidden turn order, and the human player seems to always be at the end of it.

Or #3, there is a turn order, but not always will the human be at the end of it, it just seems that way as we can't tell when the AI loses a tie?

I'd like some clarification on this, and if there is a turn order, where do we check to find out where we lay on the roadmap?

 

[Greeneyedzombie]

I read somewhere that the overflow of the production on the turn the wonder is build, decides who the wonder gets.
So the one with the most overflow wins the contest.

 

[RLesink]

I remember reading what zombie wrote about as well. An alternate theory presented was that there are no "ties". You play with 1 turn left for wonder - AI1 plays - AI2 plays - AI3 completes wonder - AI4 plays - You get missed wonder money. I don't remember who said what, or if a definitive answer was reached, but the turns way seems to make a whole lot more sense to me than the overflow way.

 

[JackOfClubs]

There is definitely a turn order. In a recent game, Gandhi declared war on Julius and asked me to help. I refused. Immediately, on the same turn, Julius asked me to help against Gandhi and I accepted (inadvertently, but that doesn't affect this point). When I looked at the log, however, I discovered that Gandhi had actually declared war in 725 AD and I declared against him in 740 AD (the next turn at Epic speed).

This implies that the turn sequence was Julius -> Me -> Gandhi, with Gandhi's declaration coming at the end of one year and Julius request for help coming at the begining of the next one.

I suspect, therefore, that option number 3 is the true situation. You can sometimes tell when the AI loses a tie, if you notice that their gold available for trade jumps drastically in the turn after you complete the wonder, but you have to want to look.

 

[obsolete]

Hmm, I'm going to have to pay a lot closer attention to those logs. I know people mostly only bother using them for online play.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I'd like some clarification on this, and if there is a turn order, where do we check to find out where we lay on the roadmap?

Well, it is a turn based game....

I'm not sure that there is a good way to know what turn order is from within the game. Assuming that you are in standard single player mode, you the human player are first. (You can verify this for yourself by dropping into world builder immediately after the game loads, and observing that non of the other civs have founded their first city). When you use the custom game tool, you'll see that the human player is assigned to the first slot by default - you could change this, if you wanted to.

Now, we know that production actually occurs after you hit end turn, and before the next players turn. The demonstration of this is the fact that you can whip a defender in a city that is about to be attacked, and that defender will be available for combat.

If the AI beats you to a wonder, the hammers you have already invested are converted to gold. When does that happen? If you experiment a bit, you'll find that you get the gold AFTER you hit end turn. In other words, you have a chance to screw around a bit with micro management, if you want to, before the hammers come crashing in.

For example: If Hatty finishes the Pyramids in 975BC (her time, which comes after your 975BC), then you'll find an announcement in the log dated 975BC, which you can first see in 950BC. At the end of your turn in 950, the hammers you've invested in the BST will be converted to gold - your log will include an announcement of this (dated 950BC). That gold will be available to you for trading prior to your 925BC turn.

There is, however, one additional source of confusion - when do you see the announcement that the wonder has been completed? The messaging system in CIV is a little bit schitzo: the messages show up in the log all at once, but are spaced in time on the screen - there's a built in delay before the next message is displayed. As a result, it can happen that, even though Hatty finished the wonder before your turn, you don't see the announcement until after your turn.


That's the view from within the SDK, subject to the usual disclaimers (the source may not actually match the game, MODs can change how things work, I'm capable of representing the source code incorrectly, etc). Thems as have counter examples are encouraged to provide them for further research, etc.

 

[obsolete]

Hmm, well some interesting war issues too then.

In my last game, Russia declares war on me in 1802. So I then bribe Isabella to attack BOTH Russia & Huyan (just incase Huyan jumps on my back). Isabella agrees.

Now guess what.. I hit end turn, and we roll into 1804 (note years jump by 2 at this point) where before I can do anything, Huyan suddenly appears and declares war on me?

That can't happen!

The AI will never (Ok HARDLY EVER) declare war on some when it is already in a middle of a war (we have our hands full response)...

So my reasoning is this... 1802 russia attacks me and bribes Huyan to attack me on the same turn (her time). But because of turn-order, Huyan doesn't get to show up in my face and tell me, until the next turn rolls in, where I am notified instantly.

This would explain the weirdness?

 

[KMadCandy]

That can't happen!

The AI will never (Ok HARDLY EVER) declare war on some when it is already in a middle of a war (we have our hands full response)...

So my reasoning is this... 1802 russia attacks me and bribes Huyan to attack me on the same turn (her time). But because of turn-order, Huyan doesn't get to show up in my face and tell me, until the next turn rolls in, where I am notified instantly.

maybe.

the WHEOOHRN also shows up when they're busy preparing for a war they're about to declare. thank goodness, since i use it for "how paranoid should i be" checks. so "declare war on gandhi" is redlined even two turns before they're going to declare on gandhi, because they're busy getting ready to do it. which is a disadvantage for them, since they could perhaps get free tech/money from me for something they're about to do, but that's how it goes.

in this case, HC may have been preparing to attack you for years. i mean by his own decision, no encouragement needed by peter, no sensing you at a disadvantage while peter's pounding on you even if he didn't get a bribe. and by that point HC was ready and did not or could not call it off, so isabella's DoW didn't change things. i of course am guessing, it wasn't my game. i'm partly basing this on your "just in case Huyan jumps on my back", so apparently you weren't the best of pals. there are situations other than ties where the "i studied on killin' you" trigger is set and the AI does not change its mind. that's what i mean by "or could not".

you don't mention whether you checked HC for EOOH. if you did check, and he didn't have enough on his hands within the recent past then yes it sounds to me like a case of him dogpiling in to take advantage of peter starting up with you (or peter bribing him). in that case, perhaps isabella declaring on him should have been a factor in his decision to do so but a tie situation blocked that.

 

[obsolete]

Well another thing.. If I bribe an AI to war, I get a -1 for bringing an opponent to war against someone. But if someone bribes an AI to declare war on me, I can't get a notification on WHO it was? This seems a little biased. I can do guesswork, but there really should be some more... fairness insight?

Anyhow, I also noticed when an AI is working on a wonder, (watching through my spies), and then that wonder is removed from the que list for no apparent reason, it's because someone else just completed it. However you STILL have to wait another turn often before getting a notice about it for some reason.

 

[KMadCandy]

yeah it would be interesting to know if someone was bribed into war with me. i just assume whoever's trying to kill me decided it was time for me to die, or that if they hadn't previously thought i wasn't worth letting live, it sure seems likely that i'm going to die now that i'm being beat up on, and they want a share of the profits. the old "just because i'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not all out to get me" theory i suppose, and i figure they don't need any bribes from each other.

twice i've had monty come ask me for help in a war (i agreed once), and then he signed peace with his victim immediately . that has to be a "things happen in this order on a turn" situation. or, given that it was monty in both cases, i suppose it could be that he's just psycho.

 

[r_rolo1]

^^Happened to me too . Monty too .

 

[Mutineer]

I do not know about order, I believe in overflow theory.

If I finish wander with whip or engeneeer, I never lost one.

 

[KMadCandy]

i'm like you muti, but even luckier *knock wood*. i have never lost a wonder that i it said i was going to finish in one turn, even without whipping or using a GE. when GEs won't finish them in a single turn i hand build them until the GE will finish it, and then i check F9 to be sure i haven't missed anything before i pop him, but it's worked so far. as far as religions, i've always been the founder if F7 showed it as not founded when i had one turn left on research (or popped the GP/GS).

but i believe the people who have had missed them when they thought they were going to get them, so i don't know what's going on. VoiceOfUnreason's post got me thinking. these questions aren't addressed to you specifically of course, they're about why the game was designed this way not interpretations of code.

If the AI beats you to a wonder, the hammers you have already invested are converted to gold. When does that happen? If you experiment a bit, you'll find that you get the gold AFTER you hit end turn. In other words, you have a chance to screw around a bit with micro management, if you want to, before the hammers come crashing in.

For example: If Hatty finishes the Pyramids in 975BC (her time, which comes after your 975BC), then you'll find an announcement in the log dated 975BC, which you can first see in 950BC. At the end of your turn in 950, the hammers you've invested in the BST will be converted to gold - your log will include an announcement of this (dated 950BC). That gold will be available to you for trading prior to your 925BC turn.

There is, however, one additional source of confusion - when do you see the announcement that the wonder has been completed? The messaging system in CIV is a little bit schitzo: the messages show up in the log all at once, but are spaced in time on the screen - there's a built in delay before the next message is displayed. As a result, it can happen that, even though Hatty finished the wonder before your turn, you don't see the announcement until after your turn.

That's the view from within the SDK, subject to the usual disclaimers (the source may not actually match the game, MODs can change how things work, I'm capable of representing the source code incorrectly, etc).

if by design i'm supposed to know in 950 BC, but the message does not show up in time to stop me from using the whip or a GE because of the system doing me the so-called favor of only showing me one message at once, then that's seriously annoying. i've opened the event log to look for things and sometimes you have to wait for it to catch up, so it's not necessarily a cure-all to say "well, don't just depend on the green flash-by announcements, open the log."

why announce it in 950 BC using an inconsistently delayed event log system, but not stop us from building it until 925 BC? what does that do other than give us one more turn to convert hammers into gold if we want to, or a chance to seriously blow it and waste a big old whip or a valuable GE? my #1 rule is play the game in the way that's fun for you, and i don't define cheating for anybody but myself. so do that if you want to, i won't think less of you, i promise. all i mean is that i don't see the purpose of that in a game design, all that i can see is it as is a bug and it seems like they missed a step somewhere. not that i know how to program my way out of a paper bag, mind you. and it obviously leads to frustration when people think they're going to get the wonder and so they whip or spend that GE and then only get gold and they feel they've wasted something big-time. what am i missing?

 

[Mutineer]

actially it does stop building, all shields from this turn go to overflow I think.

 

[futurehermit]

I believe firmly that there is a turn order, but also believe that if you rush with GE you will get the wonder. I'm less certain about whipping. I believe I have whipped a wonder but lost it in the past.

 

[obsolete]

I do not know about order, I believe in overflow theory.

If I finish wander with whip or engineer, I never lost one.

Well I can tell u for certain I was whiping & rushing those wonders at the end of their completion JUST TO BE SURE I wouldn't get beat YET AGAIN, and I was still losing every single tie. And I've lost a lot of whipped wonders (especially GW) when rushing many games before, this is why I always rush them WHEN POSSIBLE, I lose too many ties.

I've also been puzzled why SOMETIMES I'll get a notice that so & so finished great pyramids, and yet it's allowing my city to still work on sheilds for it. I've lost more than my fair of GEs in situations like that. Love it when you hit RUSH, then 10 seconds later a text shows up saying..... your WONDER has just been completed in another continent. You SUCK, but thanks for wasting your precious GE/gold.

 

[Yeekim]

I believe in the overflow theory. That is for sure how it goes with research (I have missed a religion, reloaded, went into deficit research and got that) so I do not see any reason, why that same pretty logical system should not work with wonders as well. If you have a save, it should be easy to check from worldbuilder, actually.

 

[Heeringas]

when I hit "end of turn" ,everything that is 1 turn from complite will be finished before AI can have a turn. So if I have 1 turn left for a wonder, I will get it because my turn will end before AI turns.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I'm inclined to open this up as a challenge: can anyone provide a save that demonstrates that overflow matters?

For a first cut, I would describe that as a save where
1) you are one turn away from completing a wonder
2) the wonder is not listed as being completed in the eventlog and is absent from the wonders page
3) some other civ beats you to the wonder after you hit end turn.

 

[Solo4114]

Simple solution to this annoying habit. When building wonders, save often. If the AI gets it before you do, especially if you're one turn away, reload and whip it/buy it.