Tactical Advantages of the Drill Promotion?

[TheAmerican]

What makes the Drill promotions better than Combat or specialized promotions like City Raider? For that matter, how important is a first strike?

 

[Frimlin]

I'd also like to know a bit more about how others use Drill. Usually I only use it randomly, when creating troops for attacking another city. Don't seem to ever use it for defence.

What unit types do you usually promote to Drill, and for what purpose?

 

[PibbZ]

First strike round(s) are special. The number of them is determined by looking at the number of first strike rounds of the attacker and the defender. Whichever number is greater gets the difference of values in first strike opportunities. For x-y first strikes (possible first strikes), the math is still unproven, but it looks like a 50% likelihood of getting a first strike each "round" possible.

A first strike round is like any other round, except that the first striker is the only one who can do damage. For example, if the attacker has two first strikes and the defender zero, the first two rounds have two possibilities – the attacker wins so the defender loses damage or the defender “wins” and nobody gets hurt. The odds in this round are just like any other. The first striker is just immune to damage.

First strikes make the most dramatic difference to pure winning percentage when the two fighting units are very close in strength. Two units with identical strength and equal first strikes each have a 50% chance of winning (YAY! Something that finally makes sense in this mess of math). Give 1 a single first strike, though, and the odds of that unit winning goes up to 56.8%. That’s a tremendous difference. Take somebody at the 1.39:1 level and a first strike only matters a few percentage points (from 87.6% to 90.8% and still 84.5% if the weaker unit has the first strike). More than one first strike are similarly weighted towards mattering most for units close in strength. Raw strength is still VERY important, though. A unit with 3.3 strength and no first strikes will still kill a unit with 3 strength and 2 first strikes more often (~56% of the time).

The other thing, though, is that units with first strike are less likely to be wounded. First strike helps preserve hit points, so that a unit which won will be healthier. Back to the 3.3 vs. 3 with 2 first strikes example. The stronger unit wins more, but it deals, on average, 78.6 hps damage, while the first strike unit deals, on average, 79.8 hps damage. And the first striker is more than twice as likely to walk away uninjured as the stronger unit.

If your unit is barely stronger with first-strike or barely weaker without first strike, then the first strike promotion is better than a strength promotion. This appears true out to about the 1.38/1.39 strength ratio barrier. If the strength ratio is outside 1.38, strength beats first strike. And if strength would change which unit is stronger, strength wins out. Exact calculations on this may come later. One thing to note -- Combat I doesn't always give 10% to modified strength. An archer defending a city on a hill, for example, gains far less than 10% modified strength with Combat I (6 vs. 6.3). In cases with lots of bonuses, Drill might be the better promotion, potentially even over a 20/25% bonus.

(Taken from "Combat Explained" - http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=137615) A good read if youre interested in theorycraft.

 

[Zetetic Apparat]

Which is, aside from the amazing hat, I love the (historically spurious?) Oromo Warrior.

(Drill I and II Musketman.)

 

[snipafist]

When you outclass the enemy forces, Drilled units can do amazing stuff - including wiping out enemies before they even get to attack! The resistance to collateral damage seals the deal. With two Drill 4 riflemen garrisoned in a city, you could hold off dozens of macemen/musketmen/etc. with little to worry. Due to the way that first strike rounds work, the best way to use similarly matched drill troops is to get them as many bonuses as possible. In this way, they're fairly defensive, as it's easiest to get bonuses from terrain defense or garrison defense. But you can also give them cheap promotions to benefit them against specific unit types (shock/pinch/cover/ambush/etc.), or your unit may potentially come with a built-in bonus against other types of units (like a crossbowman's bonus against melee infantry, for example), which gives them good use even as offensive units.

 

[Draknith]

I tend to use the drill promotion on my crossbowmen. Along with shock these units can be very formitable (sp). I don't use it on my melee units as I tend to use the strength, arrows/melee, and city attack, but with any bowed unit I use it without a doubt. I did notice though that having my machine gunners use drill, that they can better defend any position on my front lines.

 

[MarkM]

I tend to use the drill promotion on my crossbowmen. Along with shock these units can be very formitable (sp). I don't use it on my melee units as I tend to use the strength, arrows/melee, and city attack, but with any bowed unit I use it without a doubt. I did notice though that having my machine gunners use drill, that they can better defend any position on my front lines.

I just love maxing out machine guns with drill promos & fortifying them in cities.

 

[Azander]

I'm still not getting it. Way too advanced for my simple brain

 

[whb]

Usual rule of thumb: Drill is for the cases where (a) you are facing large numbers of weaker troops, so it is important that the first few weaker troops don't damage you too much, or (b) you are facing seige attacks and need to avoid collatoral damage.

 

[axident]

Usual rule of thumb: Drill is for the cases where (a) you are facing large numbers of weaker troops, so it is important that the first few weaker troops don't damage you too much, or (b) you are facing seige attacks and need to avoid collatoral damage.

Agreed. The only other time I mass-first-strike-upgrade is on strong Blitzing units, e.g., tanks and modern armor. You can easily blitz twice and suffer little damage if you attack with a heavily drill-promoted tank against relatively weak defenders.

 

[Jaybe]

I just love maxing out machine guns with drill promos & fortifying them in cities. the resistance from collateral is critical to surviving siegefests & first strike I think protects other units (?) At least in vanilla/warlords anyway, not sure about BTS yet.

Color me confused. Machine gun units are a siege unit, and are immune to collateral damage from siege units (in Warlords & BtS). So, how could machine gun units benefit from drill with regard to collateral?

Unless you changed their info in CIV4UnitInfos.xml to adjust the UnitCombatCollateralImmune entry.

 

[axident]

Color me confused. Machine gun units are a siege unit, and are immune to collateral damage from siege units (in Warlords & BtS). So, how could machine gun units benefit from drill with regard to collateral?

Unless you changed their info in CIV4UnitInfos.xml to adjust the UnitCombatCollateralImmune entry.

Yeah I just Combat-I/II/III/etc. upgrade my machine guns.

 

[Jaybe]

Yeah I just Combat-I/II/III/etc. upgrade my machine guns.

No, No, No.
Combat I, then Medic I. Serves either to garrison a city or join the assault team as medic, then city occupier.

BTW, I also give my machine guns +33% vs. Mounted units, since machine guns are even more effective against masses of horse than ....
A little sacrifice of balance in favor of historical flavor.

I generally promote about a fourth of my available troops in the Drill line to provide a defense against collateral. Take some with me to the battlefield as appropriate.

 

[Infantry#14]

Color me confused. Machine gun units are a siege unit, and are immune to collateral damage from siege units (in Warlords & BtS). So, how could machine gun units benefit from drill with regard to collateral?

Unless you changed their info in CIV4UnitInfos.xml to adjust the UnitCombatCollateralImmune entry.

They are not immune to collateral damage by other units, namely Bombers, Armor units and Cho-ku-nu.

 

[Lurking Liu]

I'm still not getting it. Way too advanced for my simple brain

Put simply, you get X "free" attack rounds before the combat starts, where X is the number of First Strikes available. In these rounds, you can hurt the enemy unit, but they can't hurt yours. Damage is based on Strength (unless I'm misreading something, which is quite possible) so if you've got a high Strength unit, you could theoretically destroy the enemy just using your First Strikes.

So, in short, it increases the odds of winning and potentially decreases the amount of damage taken in return.



I don't think it's really worth it for early units, but definitely for stronger late-game units. I tend to give it to Crossbowmen if I'm on the defensive, but if I'm attacking I'd rather they had Combat--Crossbows defend against Melee most often, but attack against Horse Bows and Knights too often for my taste... Thankfully immunity to first strikes disappears with Cuirassiers and Cavalry, just when Riflemen are strutting their stuff.

Drill Riflemen. Yum.

 

[LunaticSlave]

Last game i played as Gilgamesh ( mostly do anyways ) and didnt had any copper/iron near my cities not even freaking horses...WTH! . Anyways monty declares war with a crap load of macemen, pikemen and trabs, some mounted units to the mix as well. I just pumped a crap load of cheap longbowmen with drill 1 & 2, omg that was the most fun war ever. Longbowmen are so cheap compared to all units of the era plus with dril 1 and 2, is just overpowered best war i have had in a looong time. Then i managed to capture the cities with copper/iron then started to pump some macemen,crosbow & pikemen to the mix. But god i love drill promos

 

[axident]

No, No, No.
Combat I, then Medic I. Serves either to garrison a city or join the assault team as medic, then city occupier.

BTW, I also give my machine guns +33% vs. Mounted units, since machine guns are even more effective against masses of horse than ....
A little sacrifice of balance in favor of historical flavor.

I generally promote about a fourth of my available troops in the Drill line to provide a defense against collateral. Take some with me to the battlefield as appropriate.

Never! Machine guns are pure defense, they sometimes get first call to defend, especially after my stack has been pounded by relentless enemy siege fire. I give medic to really crappy units that won't be selected as defenders. Usually to chariots or some other cheap scrub units that can nevertheless keep pace with cavalry and tanks.

 

[Zetetic Apparat]

I've decided that paratroopers benefit massively from Drill, since they're obviously for situations where they can't be reinforced easily.

 

[Angst]

I remember countering a huge 20+ stack of Greek Elephants and Catapults as Koreans using 3 Hwachas and 4 Drill II Longbowmen on the Internet. It was insane. I spent 3 turns doing it, whipping up 1 Drill II Longbow each turn. I attacked so I didn't get the Collateral. However, the Drill promotion enabled my Longbows to attack without getting hurt. 3 wounded Elephants and 1 0.3 Strength Catapult retreated afterwards, and the invader retired from the game. Way to win a war!

The Drill I promotion sucks, but the First Strikes becomes pretty good from Drill II and up. You'll usually end up with 5 free attacks or something.

 

[torsoboy]

What is the consensus on how to use Chokonus? Do you just spam Chokonus? Seems to me they have a counter in horsebased units (ignore first strikes) so pairing them up with spearmen / pikemen seems like a good idea to me. In my experience, most Chokonus are one shot deals who only serve to weaken a city before the other more experienced Chokonus mop up the rest. So, some of them will become very formidable indeed - though they do rely on a whole lot of noob-konus to die it seems. Do you still build catapults/trebs for taking cities, or do you just spam more Chokonus?

It seems to me that they have become a very interesting unit with the nerf to collateral damage via artillery. One of the things that prompted the nerf was the idea that a whole stack of artillery could take a city by its own. Can't the same logic be applied to Chokonus (and therefore argue that they are overpowered)?