Ironworks, West Point, Heroic Epic

[vormuir]

These three wonders go together like corn chips, melted cheese, and peppers. But since they're all National Wonders, you can only put two of them in any single city.

So, question: which is your favorite combination?

Heroic Epic + Ironworks = Super military production city. In the late game, you'll probably be able to get a bomber or an armor unit every turn here.

West Point + Ironworks = Elite unit city. Beef it up further with an academy if you're playing Warlords and you can get Level 4 units right away. Doesn't build stuff as fast as the first combo, but builds it better. Ironworks' bonus is to all production, which means that when you're not gearing up for war, you can crank out improvements and Wonders.

Note that this is the most expensive combo to build in terms of hammers. On the other hand, 4 GPP/turn gives you a decent chance of popping a Great Engineer -- the other two combos combine Artist and Engineer GPPs.

Heroic Epic + West Point = Elite unit city again. Similar to the WP/IW above, except that the production bonus only applies to military units.

So this is a much weaker combination... but (1) it costs much less, since Heroic Epic is far cheaper than Ironworks, and (2) you can start building it much earlier in the game, since you're likely to have Military Tradition long before Steam Power. (No, not always. But likely.)

I guess a fourth combination would be "none of the above", which would be the case if you always prefer to combine two of these wonders with something else -- like West Point/Globe Theater and Ironworks/Red Cross.

Anyway. Who likes what?


Waldo

 

[LDiCesare]

Military Tradition long before Steam Power

Never for me. Settled generals in Warlords/BtS make Heroic Epic + Ironworks much better imo.

 

[Diamondeye]

plying Vanilla I'd say HE+WP (2 xp right?) + Vassalage and Theo (or whaever the xpboost is = lvl 4 units instantly. CG3 Machineguns

 

[futurehermit]

I do HE + WP and IW + settled GGs

 

[AlessioCerci]

Well in some games West Point is never even an option because i do not have a unit with the required experience, but assuming it is available:
1.HE/WP
2.Ironworks/something else - Red Cross if im still going to be warring in the modern era

I think that combining Ironworks with HE is overkill; with a good ironworks city you can get units in 1 turn anyway, better to have west point.

 

[hardwarevreag]

Will not bring you anything, because i will bomb you as long as it takes to decreaser their points so much, that I can take over with my tanks...

Anyway...

The most impresive Combination is Red Cross + West Point, Ironworks, wherever you could get some extra engineer done and the epos...

But I don't know what to do with the Globe Thetre - It's so useless...

And OXford University and all of the other...

 

[futurehermit]

Well in some games West Point is never even an option because i do not have a unit with the required experience, but assuming it is available:

In that case, just plan to be first to fascism and use the GG on your highest xp unit.

But I don't know what to do with the Globe Thetre - It's so useless...

It's so NOT useless. Ultimate whip/draft center + amazing for your gpfarm to grow super huge running all kinds of specialists. A great NW.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Heroic Epic + Ironworks = Super military production city. In the late game, you'll probably be able to get a bomber or an armor unit every turn here.

Is it worth repeating the math for why this is a bad idea?


Anyway, your list is missing the Heroic Theater.

 

[futurehermit]

Heroic Theater

Heroic Epic + Globe Theater?

Is that what you mean? I don't see those two going together tbh because GT city should be working max farms and HE should be working max prod tiles (mines)

 

[DaveMcW]

HE + Globe + Whipping is an amazing combo early in the game.

But HE + Globe + Drafting is a useless combo. Put the HE somewhere else.

 

[Handel]

With West Point it is easy to produce lvl 5 units; Without it you need 6 generals (7 with the academy) or 4 generals and 2 civics. Having lvl 5 city defenders means your cities are almost invincible. And besides it is extremely important to be able to produce lvl 5 ships.
On the other hand if you leave West Point alone you can produce 4+3+2=9 XP units. Not escpecially high level units whithout the help of the civics.

 

[DarkFyre99]

I usually go:

Heroic Epic + settled Great General
West Point + military acadamy + Moai Statues (often)
Iron Works + Red Cross

the HE city turns out primarily assault forces, plus some defensive troops
West Point turns out navy and artillary
Iron Works produces defensive troops when not turning out wonders

 

[hardwarevreag]

Ok, I don't know how it is with other versions of CiV, but in Civ IV Vanilla Globe theatre only leads to no unhappyness, nothing else...

If you take nationhood and slavery in late game, it may be useful for you...

But if you take free spech or vasallees and serfdom or emanfcipation, it's not worth anything...

 

[justkilled]

in BtS the Moai Statues give you additional worthwhile options:
HE + MS can be build early and allows you to build up a strong navy.
IW + MS is an option if you build HE elsewhere

These combinations shine on archipelago maps (difficult to get a decent production city there) or with the durch (dike). Depending on your situation they can also be usefull on more default continents/hemispheres maps.

 

[Plato90s]

I usually go with HE in the capital just because it's the first national wonder you get.

Moai Status + Ironworks gives you maximum productivity for world wonder production, or volume production of units where XP isn't as important (siege/air).

GT should be considered in combination with National Park if you're going to create a mega-population city. Globe Theatre + National Epic is always a classic to maximize your GP production.

Ironworks + National Park is also viable, to control your unhealthiness in the mid-game.

RC + WP is a waste because the city with RC should always be producing an unit which can benefit from RC. There are several categories which don't benefit at all. RC + Moai is a viable combination because you can build naval assets with healing built in.

 

[cheffster]

I pretty much ALWAYS do Heroic Epic + West Point .. and settle 90% of my great generals as great military instructors in this city, build units non-stop, and hurry other buildings. In some games I've been able to crank out units starting with 5 promotions (this is much easier with the Aggressive trait though).

As far as other national wonders, most games I do:

National Epic / Ironworks. (in capital usually)...
This city is the only city that will produce Great people.. I usually play civs with the Industrial traight and build wonders almost non-stop in this city. Most games I can produce a great person every 10-15 turns up untill I discory Scientific method (since Great Lib, Parth, and Artemis become obselete.)

Oxford / Wall Street
Ovbiously for my commerce city.. I try and settle this city on as much flood plains as possible, and costal for the bonus trade.


Glode theatre, national part, Hermatige,... etc. I usually dont bother with.
Cept Modal status on a city with lots of water, and maybe red cross with this city too for ships that can heal

 

[popejubal]

These three wonders would be pretty nifty together, but it's not allowed outside of a One City Challenge, as you point out.

The biggest deciding factor for me is how much military power can I crank out per turn from my cities. If I have a good enough Heroic Epic city, I can pump out military units from that city at a good rate and supply most of my military needs from just that one city.

If I'm going to war soon, I'll start producing units in all of my cities, so the XP bonus civics make sense then. Normally, I'm just producing in the Heroic Epic city, though, so it's Great Generals for that city. 1 Great General = 5 XP with a Barracks, so I can get units with 2 promotions.

If I want to build West Point, I won't get the +100% production bonus that comes from Heroic Epic. West Point takes an awful lot of hammers to build, so that means I'll either rush it with a Great Engineer (which means I can't settle him in the Heroic Epic or Ironworks city for 6-10 FREE hammers per turn or grab a free World Wonder with him) or I'll build it in a city that is not my Heroic Epic city so that the HE city can continue to produce units while West Point is being built.

Once West Point is built, I want to keep cranking units out there as well because it would be a real shame to waste that extra 4 XP on a building. I hear that Iron Works doesn't get any promotions no matter how many XP it gets.

That means Iron Works gets its own city as well. This is just fine with me since the Iron Works city will also be producing any of the World Wonders or the more expensive spaceship parts that I want to build after that point. No sense in wasting free XP or +100% unit production on big ticket buildings and projects.


If I do end up building Red Cross at some point, that will go into a coastal city. By that point in the game, I'll often choose to put the Red Cross in either the Heroic Epic city or the West Point city because I can chop off a bunch of turns by spending some cash. It's certainly not necessary, but getting a free Medic promotion on a zillion units is certainly handy.

The only time that I put Heroic Epic and West Point together is if I am playing a game where I'll be able to produce all of the military that I need from one city and I have a Charismatic leader. With a Charismatic leader, I can eventually produce Combat IV Commando Infantry and Combat IV Tanks that get promoted to Commando after a few battles.

What's that, you say? Why no Combat IV Commando Mechanised Infantry and Combat IV Modern Armor?
...if you have Combat IV Tanks, you will win the game well before you get to Modern Armor.

 

[gettingfat]

I won't do IW + WP. Ironwork city is also a wonder city at peace time. You don't want it to get the status locked up. Putting a GG to the IW city is good enough. HE/WP in a production city is a monster IMHO.

 

[axident]

HE/WP, Ironworks/Red Cross. But sometimes you are given some crappy cards and you have to make do, so in my Immortal Dutch Domination game I had my Ironworks city be my West Point city and my HE city be my Red Cross city, due to how long it took me to get HE and WP.

 

[MrCynical]

Heroic epic and West point I generally find the most effective of these three to pair. It's only good at producing military, but that's what specialization is about. It's very good at what it does.

Ironworks has no very obvious counterpart other than those two. Red Cross? Medic isn't particularly useful to have on lots of units, so I rarely bother with that National wonder. Globe theatre? It's a bit late for whipping. Moai Statues? Some clear synergy, but usually only archipelago maps will result in a situation where the high production sites still have a fair amount of water. As the Dutch, Moai and Ironworks go together well.

The Ironworks city I tend to use more for things like wonders and spaceship components than military, though obviously it is good for that as well. Stuff like nukes where promotions aren't present are another obvious candidate for building there.