Can Openers: theory and practice

vormuir

Prince
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Mar 14, 2006
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"Can Opener" is my term for a unit specialized for attacking cities. If there's a better name out there already, I'm sure someone will let me know.

To qualify as a Can Opener, a unit needs the following promotions: City Raider I, II and III, Combat I, and then -- depending on the era -- either Cover or Pinch. There are endless possible combinations of promotions, but if you're maxing your city attack -- and who isn't? -- this is the most efficient way to do it.

You don't need a Can Opener for every city attack. If you're picking off some dinky medieval Pop 3 city with 20% culture and a couple of unpromoted longbows inside, this unit is overkill. But sooner or later you'll have to fight some horrible Protective opponent with Drill 1/CG III longbows in a holy city on a hill. That's when you'll be very, very glad of your Can Opener.

Can Openers need a lot of experience. Five promotions cost:

26 eps for most civs
20 eps for Charismatic
17 eps for Aggressive civs (because they only need four)
13 eps for Boudica

Wise players hoard their Can Openers like diamonds, risking them only when the stakes are high. There's nothing more maddening than losing a unit with 30 eps to a bad roll on some dinky no-consequence town. Once you hit that fifth promotion, further promotions are not all that useful, so there's no point in risking your precious unit just to grab an xp or two.

There are two frustrating aspects to Can Openers. One is that units lose all but 10 xp upon upgrading. So, your 33 xp Axeman will promote to a 10 xp Maceman. This is annoying, but the promotions are kept and -- as noted above -- a mature Can Opener doesn't get much value from additional promotions anyway.

It's easy to obsess over reaching the next level, but it can be really counterproductive sometimes. I have often found myself keeping some obsolete unit around for centuries because it needed just one or two more xp. In one recent game, I had a Crossbowman with 15 xp still hanging around in the days of Riflemen, Cavalry, Transports and Destroyers. I just wanted one more Drill promotion before upgrading him...

The other problem with Can Openers is that pre-gunpowder units with Cover become less useful in the gunpowder age. There's no real solution to that. Just accept that your killer Maceman is going to become a less-killer Rifleman. At least he'll still have the CR promotions.

Which leads to the other thing about Can Openers: once you hit the gunpowder era, City Raider promotions disappear, not to be seen again until Armor rolls onstage. So you have to rely on upgraded earlier units -- usually Macemen -- to be your city killers. Wise players know this and make sure they build up a stock of Macemen with CR promotions, ready for upgrading to Riflemen and Grenadiers. There's something really pleasing about having an Infantry unit with CR III. Contrariwise, it's pretty depressing trying to fight a gunpowder-era war without a single CR unit. Don't let this happen to you.

To fine tune this a little more, if you have a CR III Maceman, pause to check the state of the world. If you're still early in the game, great... the next two promotions should be Combat I and Cover. But if you're near the end of the medieval era, and gunpowder units are close at hand, then you may want to set that unit aside for a little while. (Assuming you can spare him, of course.) He'll upgrade to a CR III Grenadier or Rifleman, while still keeping his promotions. You can then move him along the promotion line to Combat I and Pinch.

Obviously Great Generals are one way to get Can Openers in a hurry. A GG only gives enough xp to build one from scratch if you're Charismatic or Aggressive, but if you've generated enough xps to get a GG you probably have some CR II and III units hanging around. A Warlord Can Opener is likely to be your most valued unit. Just accept that sooner or later it's going to get that bad roll...

Thoughts?


Waldo
 
Another note is the can opener tank which can also pickup the CR promotions (big gap between maces and tanks!!!). AT that point is's possible to have West Point, the Pentagon, and several settled GGs.

Example, In the RPC Bismark game I was pumping out CR III, Pinch promoted tanks in 2 turns (marathon speed) from a captured AI capital that had 3 settled GGs. Built West Point there as well as the ironworks and settled another GG. With theocracy and the pentagon, tanks started with 17 XPs!!!!
 
I pretty much don't worry about promotions beyond CR3. 7 more xp for a miserable Combat 1? Sure, he may eventually get there, or even to full Can Opener status as you define it. But mostly I'm interested how numerous my CR3 guys are, not how good the best one is.

Generally I try to fight battles with 95-98% odds. You still get 2 xp for a win up to about 98% (it's not exactly by percentage, damaged units and first strikes can change the threshold, but 98% is a rule of thumb). Above that, you only get one. For tougher fights, I generally use the best attacker if his odds will be over 50%; random weaker guys get suicide duty if no one is over 50%. Although sometimes it's worth it to sacrifice CR2s if the defender is very tough, especially with first strikes.

Once a unit gets CR3, I stop using it unless it's the only unit with >50% odds. Again, I'd rather groom up a larger number of CR3s than pursue additional promotions for a select few.

peace,
lilnev
 
The main problem with can openers is: they die. Sure you can cherish them, only fighting when the odds are high... But... If the odds are high anyway - why would we need a highly trained can opener ?

For attacking cities i use the best (in terms of promotions) units i can produce. Barracks+(Vassalage or Theocracy) makes CRII from scratch. Later in the game there are options to produce higher promoted units as well (Westpoint, Military instructors, Pentagon). It's not that hard to get Level 3 units - CRIII - produced.

Those CRII or CRIII units i use for can openeres. They are reasonable good and i have no hesitation to attack with them, as i know i can make more if has to.
 
Bombard units always have the City Raider promotion available.

CR3 units are definitely worth upgrading, but there is no need to stockpile them when you can just build cannons.
 
I'm not going to argue against the value of such a highly promoted unit, but I will argue against the wisdom of going out of your way to produce them.

It's common in the medieval era to build 7 exp units out of the primary military city ... barracks + theocracy + MI. It takes 3 exp to get to CR3, but 19 to make one of your crack can-opening squads. I would rather split up the exp and have 6 CR3 macemen than 1 CR3, combat1, cover maceman. If the odds are so bad that the extra 2 promotions make a big difference, your highly promoted units are just going to die most of the time anyway. 2 CR3 units will do a better job of injuring the toughest defender than one of your can openers.

I still use units like the one you describe, and for the same purpose. My thinking is 'what is the point of a highly promoted unit if all you ever do is save it for 99% battles to get more promotions?' I just don't see the value of favoring creating them over getting more units to level 4 for CR3.

One thing I would like to mention, is when taking cities with super defenders like CG3 bows on a hill and such, automatically sending in the siege units first is often a mistake. They will still do the collateral damage, but often will not injure that one tough defender, resulting in mass casualties of siege units. Then your Raider units will still have just as hard a job getting past the first defender (though the others will be easier). Better to injure that tough defender with your best CR unit (or 2) before sending in the siege. Same results, but more siege survive.
 
Saving CR III axes and maces to promote to CR III rifles is a pretty dammed big advantage in the rifle era. Infantry soso since tanks can get the CR promotion.
 
Saving CRIII Maces (Or Building them - Tech Rifling for Riflemen, skip Meilitary Science for no Grenadiers) to upgrade for Rifles is a good idea. But it's not the same as trying to get the Level 5 "uber-Units.
 
For those "one hard defender on top" units that Xanadux mentioned i prefer to take some suicide Longbows promoted along the Drill path with my stacks. They of course die, but the first strikes guarantee some damage. They are also cheaper than Macemen for this purpose. Sometimes i also promote a couple of the Siege units along the Drill path instead, but they get 1 less first strike...
 
The only can-openers I ever need are called Mr Catapult and Mr Trebucet. Then, whatever CR1, 2, or 3 units I happend to have to finish the job.

Cheers.
 
Bombard units always have the City Raider promotion available.

CR3 units are definitely worth upgrading, but there is no need to stockpile them when you can just build cannons.

Agreed. I find myself a lot more concerned about maintaining my siege force than my CR3 infantry.
 
The only can-openers I ever need are called Mr Catapult and Mr Trebucet. Then, whatever CR1, 2, or 3 units I happend to have to finish the job.

Cheers.


I find that in BtS this strategy is less reliable and I love my CR3 can openers.

Just playing a game as Washington and have some nice infantry running around.

Was doing an intercontinental invasion and my can openers (3 from memory) held off about 10 counter attacking Cav supported by Trebs. Just another benefit of them. They had reach CR3 combat 1 plus by this stage.
 
The only can-openers I ever need are called Mr Catapult and Mr Trebucet. Then, whatever CR1, 2, or 3 units I happend to have to finish the job.

Cheers.

I agree - it seems to me that seige weapons are much easier to come by. Not that I don't value highly promoted units, but honestly, when you're fighting a lot of wars, these units can come and go. You can always build seige weapons... (well, after construction anyway.)
 
I find that in BtS this strategy is less reliable and I love my CR3 can openers.

The only thing BtS changed is that siege units can't kill outright. But that's the thing: I still don't find CR3 footmen all that important, since I don't need a unit with all those promotions to kill defenders that have already been beaten to an inch of their life.
 
One thing I would like to mention, is when taking cities with super defenders like CG3 bows on a hill and such, automatically sending in the siege units first is often a mistake. They will still do the collateral damage, but often will not injure that one tough defender, resulting in mass casualties of siege units. Then your Raider units will still have just as hard a job getting past the first defender (though the others will be easier). Better to injure that tough defender with your best CR unit (or 2) before sending in the siege. Same results, but more siege survive.

Much depends on the quality of the other defenders. After all, suiciding your best CR unit against Romulus doesn't do much good if the siege just ends up battling Remus.

Of late, I've been experimenting with nut crackers: siege engines to soften the underbelly, raiders to crack the top defender, second layer of siege to ensure the outcome, more raiders (or defenders) to soak up the cheap experience points.

In theory, a great general centaur could be part of the mix as well, but I haven't been whelmed by the experience in practice.
 
Disposapults will do that for you...

My point is ... suppose you have maces and trebs ...

You face Romulus (CG3 Drill3 longbow)
And Remus (CG3 Drill2 longbow)

On a hill.


Remaining defenders are a dozen or so longbows, archers, swords, and axes, nothing better than CG1, Drill1.

You have a stack of 10 CR3 maces, 10 CR2 maces, and 10 trebs.

What gives better results? Damage both Romulus and Remus first? Or throw all the trebs in first?
 
What gives better results? Damage both Romulus and Remus first? Or throw all the trebs in first?

I don't know. Define "better results".

If we can agree on a scoring function, we may be able to come up with some reasonable estimates of the results.
 
Against those +225% or more defensive bonus longbows you actually want c3 instead of cr3...
 
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