(3-NS) Town = 1 Free Pop to City

[Stalker0]

Proposal: When a town is created, the city that currently controls that tile gains an immediate 1 population. The town also provides the normal benefits. The population is permanent even if the town is pillaged or later removed.

Rationale: Great Merchants still need some love to compete with other great people. While the town has good yields, its still not as attractive as most other GPTIS. This gives it a boost in a more unique and distinctive way, providing a nice boost of population, without just slapping on more yields. It also provides a strategic minigame in timing and optimizing the best moment to place the town for optimal benefits.

 

[usadefcon1]

Now if we can just think of something this creative for the Manufactory.

 

[Rekk]

Large base yields AND benefits from connections/trade routes AND boosts bulbs AND gives population growth

 

[azum4roll]

Towns are already VERY strong. There's no need to buff it.

 

[CppMaster]

Compared to what? Academies or Holy Sites?Anyway, merchants are very weak.

 

[glaivemaster]

The reason I don't aim for Great Merchants isn't because I don't like the town, it's because I don't like the Merchant. I can't imagine this changing my prioritisation there.

 

[CppMaster]

The reason I don't aim for Great Merchants isn't because I don't like the town, it's because I don't like the Merchant. I can't imagine this changing my prioritisation there.

The better a town is, the better a Great Merchant is and the better a Great Merchant is, the better a merchant is.

 

[Tekamthi]

couldn't town just provide more food, isn't this the normal way for improvements to give +pop?

I do kind of like the idea of adding pop from town as outlined in OP but also losing pop when pillaged (and then adding back when repaired) -- would add some depth to siege, but again this effect could be achieved with food yield

 

[pineappledan]

The idea of populations just popping in and out of existence on pillage/repair is… ew. Do not want. What if the town is stolen by a culture bomb, or a neutral tile with a town is claimed (raze-resettle)? Giving a free pop will re-anchor your happiness. A player might have frozen growth and then accidentally unhappiness-bomb themselves by popping a merchant on the wrong tile.

I just don’t like it very much… the town is a good tile; I don’t think this is needed, but it’s also going introduce some weird corner cases.

 

[Stalker0]

The idea of populations just popping in and out of existence on pillage/repair is… ew. Do not want. What if the town is stolen by a culture bomb, or a neutral tile with a town is claimed (raze-resettle)? Giving a free pop will re-anchor your happiness. A player might have frozen growth and then accidentally unhappiness-bomb themselves by popping a merchant on the wrong tile.

As noted in the proposal, the pop is one and done. No matter what happens to the town after that, the pop remains. This was probably in response to Takamthi but just want to make sure that is clear to everyone.

 

[Stalker0]

The better a town is, the better a Great Merchant is and the better a Great Merchant is, the better a merchant is.

This is my thought as well. Its hard to say in one breath that everyone thinks Merchants are terrible and in the other start praising how good the town is.

 

[Stalker0]

To give some context, here are the yields of a few GPTI for comparison. I am going to assume Towns are built on roads/railroads, as I think it would be silly to build them anywhere else. I'll also assume a TR is maintained on them for optimal comparison.

Town (+1 turn to WLTKD)
Town: +8,+2,+2
Town (+TR): +10,+2,+4
Banking: +13,+2,+4
Architecture: +13,+5,+4
Railroad: +17,+8,+8
Refrigeration: +20,+8,+8


Academy (+10% science from future GS bulbs)
Academy: +6
Physics: +9
Scientific Theory: +12
Rocketry: +15
Nuclear Fission: +18


I think the biggest compare point is right around that physics area (compared to Town + TR). That is when you are likely to have either GPTI, and its still early where the bonuses really matter. Banking comes a good bit later, so the earlier academy bump here is pretty relevant. The next real comparison is around railroad (compared to the academy with scientific theory), while its a lot later in the game the town does get its biggest bump so its a notable improvement.

So those two comparison points are

Town (+TR): +10,+2,+4
vs
Academy: +9

Town: +17,+8,+8
vs
Academy: +12


My general experience is that very early in the game, a single town has value, and I think they tend to compete or maybe even beat academies. However, I think the academy scales better in the late game, not on raw yields mind you, I think the town clearly delivers more yields, but on its GS scaler. A late town is "nice" but realistically those yields pale in comparison to my total yields (as does the academies), but the +40ish% increase to my GS bulbs is way stronger than a +4 WLTKD turn increase per GM, its almost no comparison.

 

[pineappledan]

Its hard to say in one breath that everyone thinks Merchants are terrible and in the other start praising how good the town is.

What people are telling you is that there are other ways to improve or change the merchant/GMerchant complex, and that the Town is not the problem.

 

[Siddorm]

If there is a balance problem it lies with academies, not towns. In particular, the "+10% science from future GS bulbs" bonus makes academies extremely strong.

 

[Dimmy]

What about the great merchant being used as a settler? Traveling around, finding a nice place to settle and leave the nomadic life?

 

[Recursive]

What about the great merchant being used as a settler? Traveling around, finding a nice place to settle and leave the nomadic life?

Mechanically overlaps with the Merchant of Venice, making it less unique, and thematically overlaps with Towns.

 

[axatin]

@Stalker0 Didn't you say in the specialists discussion that one of the main reasons to use specialists is to prevent growth in order to keep unhappiness under control? How does that fit together with towns giving free population?

Also, merchants are currently weak because gold from other sources is so abundant, but last session some proposals have passed to address this. I'd suggest evaluating those changes first before making further changes to merchants or towns.

 

[Recursive]

Proposal failed due to lack of sponsorship.