Newb forum on City Specialization

[arcane assasin]

As a new player reading the forums/articles here I have quickly realized the importance of city specialization is in order to succeed in the game, especially once you start to advance in difficulty. There are some great articles on city spec, and even more help from game threads, which show hands on, in game applications of ideas. Seeing how willing the more experienced players are to help us beginners, I thought I would start a thread where beginners who are beyond the game basics, and looking for more specific answers on city specialization in particular, can post their questions, and have them answered by more knowledgable veterans.

If you are a newbie with more basic questions, there are many threads that can help. I'd like to keep this thread focused on city specialization/development only.

I will follow this post with a few questions. Any and all feedback will be appreciated, and put to good use. Thanks.

 

[arcane assasin]

First off, as I create my early cities and add wonders to them, I am trying to maintain what are referred to as "pure" cities as far as GPP. In my current game I waited on the Oracle, trying to avoid infecting a city planned for Great Scientist production with those points toward Prophets. In the process I lost the Oracle to an AI civ, and therefore missed the Metal Casting slingshot that would have been useful in another city for forge and Great Engineers.

I'd appreciate any feedback on this situation, but also on the importance of the "pure" city approach to GPP.

 

[Bleys]

One great trick I learned from playing in SGs is to put a sign on each city, defining the direction you want to take the city, Commerce or Production.

At lower levels, the best habits to make are in the order you build stuff. Specialization is about timing. If you have a city with lots of tiles for Cottages, then you want things that boost those numbers quickly. Markets, Grocers and Libraries. If a city has lots of hills, then it will be better suited toward Production, so you build farms to feed your Miners and start with buildings like Forges, Barracks, and crank out units.

Every city should have a Granary, and something to pop borders, like a Monument, Temple, Theater, etc. And there are no hard and fast rules here with what you build in your cities. Speaking for myself, I like forges in early in my Commerce cities for the whip/OR, and I also like Markets and Grocers in my Production cities for Happiness and Health. But thats "eventually", specialization is about how you fit each city into its primary role in your Empire.

 

[arcane assasin]

Secondly, as I create early cities I tend to focus on growth, and production, and soon I am loosing research due to lack of commerce. In my current game I am trying to develope a specialist or hybrid economy, but I have neither cottages or specialists yet, and my research is suffering.

So my question is, as you develop your early strategy toward specialization, how do you balance your growth/production properly with the addition of either cottages or specialists to avoid a drop in research?

 

[JTMacc99]

Secondly, as I create early cities I tend to focus on growth, and production, and soon I am loosing research due to lack of commerce. In my current game I am trying to develope a specialist or hybrid economy, but I have neither cottages or specialists yet, and my research is suffering.

So my question is, as you develop your early strategy toward specialization, how do you balance your growth/production properly with the addition of either cottages or specialists to avoid a drop in research?

If I have at least one city with Gold or Silver, I find that I can get away with putting a lot of effort into growth and production while setting up the cottage economy. If I don't, I will build a library in the capital and any city that will is expected to generate commerce and run as many scientists as I afford in my first 4-5 cities. This usually lasts until something like building the Pyramids or revolting into HR changes the way I can grow my cities, assign citizens and run specialists.

Either that, or I build a bunch of military units, run the science slider way too high, and fund the treasury with war booty.

 

[Stolen Rutters]

Secondly, as I create early cities I tend to focus on growth, and production, and soon I am losing research due to lack of commerce. In my current game I am trying to develop a specialist or hybrid economy, but I have neither cottages or specialists yet, and my research is suffering.

So my question is, as you develop your early strategy toward specialization, how do you balance your growth/production properly with the addition of either cottages or specialists to avoid a drop in research?

Your research is suffering? Build a library, fast. A "specialist economy" shouldn't be afraid to use scientists for research... Your science city should be generating Great Scientist points anyway!

With city specialization, a Science city should come early. In my games, I make it one of the first three... About half the time my production city is City number 2 and the Science city is the capital. I am guessing your map gave you the opportunity for a host of production cities that don't work well as science cities? Just a guess. Get that science city up and running asap.

Now I haven't played a "specialist economy" in a long time, but I think a very large share of your early research comes from scientists and GP points. Great scientists can build an academy and/or settle in your Science City, in addition to bulbing some nice techs.

 

[arcane assasin]

Your research is suffering? Build a library, fast. A "specialist economy" shouldn't be afraid to use scientists for research... Your science city should be generating Great Scientist points anyway!

This is a distinction I have been having a little trouble with. If I am correct, for a SE you would want your scientist specialists(and Glib) in your GPfarm to generate those GS's, then settle the GS's in your science city where you will eventually build Oxford. So can these two be combined into one GPfarm/science center? And that also leads me back to my first question about the purity of GPP (see second post) because currently my capitol is perfect for GPfarm and producing those GS's, so I need to plan for wonders to isolate GS points.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Sounds like you are putting too much emphasis on wonders in your game. If the capital has high food, and you want to make it a super science city, just build a granary, library, run as many scientists as you can, chop the Great Library, build the National Epic, later Oxford. Markets and Grocers are good later as is an aquaduct (harbour as well if on the coast).

I don't mind Pyramids in my science city either the great engineer you may pop comes in handy for another wonder later.

 

[Sisiutil]

First off, as I create my early cities and add wonders to them, I am trying to maintain what are referred to as "pure" cities as far as GPP. In my current game I waited on the Oracle, trying to avoid infecting a city planned for Great Scientist production with those points toward Prophets. In the process I lost the Oracle to an AI civ, and therefore missed the Metal Casting slingshot that would have been useful in another city for forge and Great Engineers.

I'd appreciate any feedback on this situation, but also on the importance of the "pure" city approach to GPP.

The pure GPP approach is sound, especially for the early and middle game when you want to be assured of the type of GP you'll get (by the late game it no longer really matters). However, losing the Oracle was bad. I would have changed city plans--build the Oracle in the best city with a shot at it and change my GP farm to another city. If you axe-rush someone (yes, Oracle & axe-rush together, it CAN be done), a captured capital is usually a good candidate.

This is a distinction I have been having a little trouble with. If I am correct, for a SE you would want your scientist specialists(and Glib) in your GPfarm to generate those GS's, then settle the GS's in your science city where you will eventually build Oxford. So can these two be combined into one GPfarm/science center? And that also leads me back to my first question about the purity of GPP (see second post) because currently my capitol is perfect for GPfarm and producing those GS's, so I need to plan for wonders to isolate GS points.

In a SE, you want to generating GPP in several cities, not just the GP farm. You should get most of your GP from the city with the National Epic, of course, but it will be awhile before it's built, and later in the game you should also get a batch of late GPs from non-GP farm cities too, once their accummulated GPP can outpace the GP farm's.

Also in a SE, you don't settle Great Scientists; you need them to lightbulb techs, which you then trade to the AI for techs that you're missing. That's one way you make up for running the slider so low. Remember that settled Great People do NOT generate GPP.

 

[arcane assasin]

In a SE, you want to generating GPP in several cities, not just the GP farm. You should get most of your GP from the city with the National Epic, of course, but it will be awhile before it's built, and later in the game you should also get a batch of late GPs from non-GP farm cities too, once their accummulated GPP can outpace the GP farm's.

Also in a SE, you don't settle Great Scientists; you need them to lightbulb techs, which you then trade to the AI for techs that you're missing. That's one way you make up for running the slider so low. Remember that settled Great People do NOT generate GPP.

First off, it is ironic that you respond here, considering I am currently reading up on your ALC's for ideas, and finding a wealth of information there. (Perhaps you recognized the MC->forge->GE progression I was trying) In fact in the game I described I am using Alex and reading ALC#8 as a reference. So anyway, thanks for taking the time.

Just to clarify: the pure GPP route is the way to go, and I am right in using the GPfarm, wherever it ends up, to generate my GS's. So if GS are used for bulbing techs, then what exactly goes in the science city? I'll have to go back and check, but I could have sworn in #7 you had scientists and GS in your science city in SE experiment.

Also, I have designed my main production city to produce GE's with Great Wall, and 'mids on the way. So are GE's viable for the whole game, or just early on to rush those wonders.

EDIT: I just checked ALC#7 and in fact in the mid rounds there was a post where you recieved some GS's and used them to bulb techs. I believe the quote was along the lines of "I suppose I burned the GS instead of putting them to use the whole game." Anyway, thats where I got the idea. Maybe you've changed your strategy since then. I have a lot of catching up to do.

 

[Stolen Rutters]

Just to clarify: the pure GPP route is the way to go, and I am right in using the GPfarm, wherever it ends up, to generate my GS's. So if GS are used for bulbing techs, then what exactly goes in the science city? I'll have to go back and check, but I could have sworn in #7 you had scientists and GS in your science city in SE experiment.

Also, I have designed my main production city to produce GE's with Great Wall, and 'mids on the way. So are GE's viable for the whole game, or just early on to rush those wonders.

Remember that the ALC games were done with the original game, LONG before Beyond the Sword! Great People are used later in the game to form corporations now, so a late GE can give you... shoot, I can't remember which corp... I'm at work. Maybe Mining Corp.?

Anyway, the game is played a bit different now, and the GP points are quite valuable later in the game. Originally they lost effectiveness over time, and once your main wonders were in place (and once those late techs got too expensive, great people were only good to lightbulb half a tech) the only thing you would use them for was settling.

Edit - since I don't know what version you are playing:
-Civ4 early game has always been fun, but seemed to dry up by mid game once I played through the game too many times and realized the late game was mainly tedious (in my view of course). Hit "next turn" and wait, hit next turn and wait... over and over and over, and you'll get what I mean.
-Warlords essentially rewrote (some people say "fixed") the middle game, tweaked the early game and late game, and greatly improved the computer players. Here only the late game was "empty" in my opinion.
-Beyond the Sword rewrote the late game (Corporations! woohoo) and essentially made the game "complete" in my view. BtS is essentially the most fun Civ game I played, mainly because the game is playable from front to back... something to do, things to accomplish, and an AI that can keep up at least part of the way.

 

[arcane assasin]

Remember that the ALC games were done with the original game, LONG before Beyond the Sword! Great People are used later in the game to form corporations now, so a late GE can give you... shoot, I can't remember which corp... I'm at work. Maybe Mining Corp.?

Anyway, the game is played a bit different now, and the GP points are quite valuable later in the game. Originally they lost effectiveness over time, and once your main wonders were in place (and once those late techs got too expensive, great people were only good to lightbulb half a tech) the only thing you would use them for was settling.

Actually, I am playing Warlords now, just got that a month ago. Will get BtS soon though. Are the GP points that much less valuable on this build?

 

[Stolen Rutters]

Actually, I am playing Warlords now, just got that a month ago. Will get BtS soon though. Are the GP points that much less valuable on this build?

Oops, looks like I cross posted my edit.

Warlords. It has been awhile. I think you have more things you can do with your Great People than the original version (a lot more wonders were added and the techs were moved around a little) but I can't remember too many details from Warlords other than it was a big jump in fun from the original. I remember there was less "next turn" and wait in Warlords. Here is where I'll have to bow out and let the Warlords players have their say (or at least the people who can remember enough to be helpful! ).

edit - Just remember the ALCs are still very valuable, and help with whatever version you are playing. Details will vary based on the version, of course.

I can help with one more thing. City specialization as a concept still works no matter the version. You will still need to learn how to build a super science city and a production city. The details will depend which game you play. Regardless, that super science city will still get a granary and library, will avoid building units and ALWAYS concentrate on building science improvments (the production city should build all science city defense units... they will walk to the science city), and it will work every scientist specialist you can afford to feed for the whole game.

 

[Skallagrimson]

City specialization should take into account not just "which specialists should I run where" but also where the pairings of national wonders should go.

I've also found that the map I'm given doesn't allow for pure-pure specialization and the terrain for what I want to build is often imperfect. Life's a b*tch and then you DOW.

What I do is:

1) If the capital is centrally-located relative to the other cities I build, and has good terrain for cottages, it remains the capital and becomes the Science City as well (lowest maintenance means slider science will be highest under those conditions, and good food will allow at least 2 scientists to be flipped there). This doesn't mean it gets cottages right away, but the land is planned, long-term, for cottages. In an early axe-rush is may just get farms for a whip-army. Cottage later when conditions are more stable and you aren't in desperate need for axemen.

2) I try to locate, if possible, a good river-side tile with food and lots of forest, as a future Production center. I DO NOT CHOP here, as it will need all the tree health it can get. Lumber mills with railroads make up for the lost hammers later on. This city gets at least Iron Works, and some other plug-in of national wonder that won't fit elsewhere (e.g., Mount Rushmore).

3) Another specialized spot I try to find is a place with lots and lots of either trees OR JUNGLE, for future use as a National Forest + Shakespeare's Theater synergy combo. This means the city can grow large large LARGE (both health and happiness will be high) and you get lots of free specialists from the NF. The GP farm? Now you've got TWO!!!

4) The standard GP farm gets National Epic, and when at all possible I try to engineer wonders there (adds to the GPPs). What other national wonder goes there will depend on the map. Sometimes you end up with a coastal GP farm (tons of seafood) and Moai makes more sense. Sometimes... not.

5) I try to find a good high-production COASTAL city (except on pangea) for Militaryville: Heroic Epic and West Point. This means that not only will your land units get good promotions, but naval vessels as well. Without a good navy your late game plans will be ripped to shreds by a sea-superior AI. This plugs that gap.

6) Key border culture-war cities get Hermitage and as many different religions as possible (to build cathedral-type buildings, for yet more culture).

Variations on this are legion. If I start with Mysticism I try to do a double religion-pop: Polytheism (Hinduism) and Monotheism (Judaism) in the cap city. It sets a few other things back, but a Double-Holy with shrines for both make for a highly-rich Wall Street city later in the game. This same capital city CAN also be the science city, but often not. Often your starting capital is in a crappy place (I usually play Continents and the game loves to stick you on tundra surrounded by desert, so the capital is just a bunch of tents building settlers to get the f*** out of dodge and go to greener pastures ASAP). But it doesn't matter too much what the tiles are like in a double-holy city, as its primary revenue is from pilgrims, not cottages.

Terrain doesn't always allow for having both an Iron Works production center and a forrested wonderland for free specialists. Sometimes it makes more sense to leave some trees unchopped in the GP farm and combine NE with NF and use some other method to try to keep citizens happy there. Or the converse, combine NE with ST and just food your way past the health limit.

Quite often you don't get really good commerce cities until you TAKE one from an AI. I'm quite often okay with that. If I'm on terrain that's only production-friendly, I produce. UNITS.

To me it's more key to peacefully settle the pristine forest land and keep it pristine, because there's no taking that from an AI (any land the AIs settle they always chop it to death, so the bonuses for an Iron Works or National Forest are gone forever). Cottages you can take or grow later. Trees you need NOW. In fact get as many forests as you can because the ones you won't keep pristine for IW or NF, you can chop those for gearing up your axe rush.

Your mileage may vary, and your map definitely will.

 

[Divaythsarmour]

First off, as I create my early cities and add wonders to them, I am trying to maintain what are referred to as "pure" cities as far as GPP. In my current game I waited on the Oracle, trying to avoid infecting a city planned for Great Scientist production with those points toward Prophets. In the process I lost the Oracle to an AI civ, and therefore missed the Metal Casting slingshot that would have been useful in another city for forge and Great Engineers.

I'd appreciate any feedback on this situation, but also on the importance of the "pure" city approach to GPP.

There's no reason for a beginner to worry about creating a GP farm just for just one type of GP. I suppose it's good to know and understand the theory behind it. But employing that kind of an approach in a useful way is probably somewhere between interediate and advanced gameplay. You would have to log in a lot of games before you would even know what type of GP is most useful to your game style.

I think the oracle/metal casting slingshot would be much more useful to a beginning player. It might help you grab more land or get some sort of an advantage to build on early in the game.

 

[Divaythsarmour]

The advantage in city specialization is in how it enables you to maximize commerce, research and production in the most efficient manner. After you settle there are two decisions in city specialization, improvements and buildings.

Commerce cities are to maximize the money for your economy. You improve the tiles with cottages and enough farms to feed the citizens to work the maximum tiles. It's a bonus if you have luxury resources - improve accordingly. Dont build forges, factories, libraries, universities etc. Build banks in commerce cities. Build Wall St in your best commerce city. It's also a good place to settle great merchants.

Science cities are for the maximization of research. Improvements would include farms for a surplus of food to feed the scientists specialist that you'll choose in your city screen. Build libraries, universities, observatories etc. Don't build banks, forges, factories etc. Science cities are a great place to build academies (with a GS).

Production cities are for building your armies and your wonders. Improvements are primarily mines for hammers and farms to feed the citizens. Forges and factories are the buildings to enhance production. Don't build libraries, universities, banks etc.

Rivers are great for any city placement. All cities benifit from food resources. The highest food resorce regions would be the best science citys. The regions with the most hills (especially plains hills) are best for production. Commerce cities can be anywhere if you can feed enough citizens to work the cottages.

Each player will make exceptions as is helpful.

 

[pigswill]

I tend to find that I run libraries and a couple of scientists in two or three cities early on to generate the GSs for liberalism. My GP farm (with NE) tends to come later (and sometimes not at all) and by that point I'm not so worried about which GP I'll get as they tend to get used for golden ages.
One potentially useful trick if you're going for an early wonder is to build it in the city that's destined to become your unit pump and use other cities to run specialists for the GPs you want.

Edit: I tend to find in practice that to grab as much land as possible before someone else takes it I rush out settlers and place cities to cover the territory with as little overlap and few gaps as possible (allowing for grabbing resources, mountains in the wrong place etc). As a consequence I get the city first then decide what's the most useful way to specialise it later. Most of my cities tend to become hybrids as a result but I'd rather have six hybrids than four 'perfect' cities.

 

[FlyinJohnnyL]

Production cities are for building your armies and your wonders. Improvements are primarily mines for hammers and farms to feed the citizens. Forges and factories are the buildings to enhance production. Don't build libraries, universities, banks etc.

I often find that I build banks and unis in the military pump to get 6 of them up quicker so I can get Oxford and Wall Street up quicker as well.

And shouldn't you build some cottages in the science city? Or should you farm it all to maximize scientists?

 

[Stolen Rutters]

I often find that I build banks and unis in the military pump to get 6 of them up quicker so I can get Oxford and Wall Street up quicker as well.

And shouldn't you build some cottages in the science city? Or should you farm it all to maximize scientists?

Depends on the situation, the map... If your leader is financial and the city is on a river, cottages will probably win. If creative and no river, scientists will probably win. (But not always.)

 

[Skallagrimson]

Any building where you need 6+ to build a nat. wonder, I tend to build everywhere.

And in the later game where I'm building more than enough units from my production cities, I go for "nice to have" buildings everywhere else, just to take them temporarily off of unit production.

Producing too many units is a very nice problem to have, but I do have it in most late games.