[Vote] (4-04) Korea Rework Proposals

[Recursive]

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VP Congress: Session 4, Proposal 4
Discussion Thread: (4-04) Proposal: Make Seowons cheaper
Proposer: @phantomaxl1207
Sponsor: @Legen

Proposal Details
Proposal: Make the Seowon cost more in line with T2 Classical Era Buildings, 200.

Rationale: Seowons come at Philosophy (Classical), yet retain the Medieval Era Building Cost they had as a University replacement (Education).


VP Congress: Session 4, Proposal 4a
Discussion Thread: (4-04a) Counterproposal: Korea Rework
Proposer: @pineappledan
Sponsor: @pineappledan

Proposal Details
There are some issues with the kit overlaps with Maya, Korea and Babylon that I would like to try resolving:
Right now we have a situation where all 3 of our most SV-focused civs all have a major bonus towards great people generation on their UA:
- Babylon has a large % GP rate for 1 specialist type
- Korea has a large %GP rate bonus during Golden Ages
- Maya gets GPs for free
There is also a bit of an overlap with Assyria, because he gets 3 to GWs in his UA and Korea gets 1 toGWs on his UB.

Spoiler Here is the current kit: :

Scholars of the Jade Hall
+1 Science from all Specialists, increasing by +1 in the Medieval, Industrial, and Atomic Eras.
+30% Great Person Rate during Golden Ages.
Gain 50 Golden Age Points when a Great Person is born, scaling with Era.

Seowon
32
+15%Science in this City during Golden Ages.
Gain 50% of this City's Science output as an instant boost to your current Research when a Citizen is born in this City (up from 25%).
+1 from Great Works in this City.
Available Earlier than the University which it replaces, arriving at Philosophy rather than Education.

proposed changes:

• UA gives +20%Science during Golden Ages instead of +30%Great Person Rate
• Seowon changes:
  • No longer gives +15%Science during Golden Ages
  • moved back to Education
  • Base yields changed to 32
  • Gives +1 to all GPTIs near the city (to match the +1 from GWs)

This would unstack Korea from a great person modifier rate, so it isn't so exactly overlapping with Mayans and Babylonians.
Adding the to ALL permanent GP expend effects makes the overlap with Assyria less acute.
The Seowon would move back in tech. This is historically supported.
The Seowon were an adaptation of the Chinese Shuyuan academies. The oldest Seowon was established in the 14th century. Not classical era.
Many Seowon were formed out of monasteries that were seized by the government in an anti-Buddhist inquisition. This makes the Faith bonus on them anti-historical, and a bit cheeky.

 

[Thibix Magnus]

for the sake of discussion, I would have some questions about the broader implications of proposal 4a. I like the new GPTI bonus, but compared to 30% GP rate in GA, isn't the overall change a nerf to CV Korea?

Currently Korea can play a pure tall tradition style and pursue both science and cultural VCs depending on the situation, as it benefits from trad-art-rationalism either way. I feel it has the tools to do so despite the previous "unstaking" of tradition and artistry that I feel hurts that playstyle nowadays. Having CV in the backpocket is important for tall science, because wider science empires might overtake tall korea by sheer size. Besides, it is also not shoehorned into that turtle style thanks to the hwach'a that allows for late conquest.

Adding more "unstaking" to that means Korea becomes more focused on science, and has less benefits from going artistry. I have the impression that it adds up to everything that makes tall play falling off. I totally share the objective of diversifying playstyle, hence my concern

 

[azum4roll]

hwach'a that allows for late conquest

Unrelated, but this here is why we should change the Hwach'a. A UU is supposed to be the strongest when it's unlocked, not after it obsoletes.

 

[Legen]

I like the new GPTI bonus, but compared to 30% GP rate in GA, isn't the overall change a nerf to CV Korea?

Not necessarily. The extra production comes in handy for competing for wonders and is well timed for Renaissance, the era with the largest number of wonders, many of which are really good for a CV and for Golden Age civs. If that bonus allows for one or two extra wonders in this era, then it already pays off more than the +30% GP on GAs for this civ.

 

[pineappledan]

If it is too weak, we can buff it. No problem.

if the UA is too weak now, we could change it to:
Yield modifiers from Golden Ages increased to 25%production, culture, and science.

The base yields of the seowon could also be increased.

What should be at issue is if this is a direction we want to go. I submit that an early unlock for the seowon UB is unsupported, not very useful, and overdone. A base Faith yield on the seowon is not only too small and late to be a factor for religion, but is bad history. Lastly, I propose that the two separate bonuses on Golden ages not only are redundant with itself, but a combination of science and GP bonuses are redundant with Maya and Babylon. We should simply drop one and stick with the one that makes Korea the most different from other civs.