(5-VT) Counterproposal: change Great Artist bulb formula

[azum4roll]

Counterproposal of:

[Vote] - (5-29) Golden Age Removal Series: Great Artist Bulb Reduction

Voting Instructions Players, please cast your votes in the poll above. Vote "Yea" for every proposal you'd be okay with if it were implemented. Vote "Nay" if you'd be okay if these proposals weren't implemented. You can vote for any number of options. All votes are public. If you wish, you can...

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Potentially conflicts with:

[Vote] - (5-27) Golden Age Removal Series: Remove GAP and Tourism From "All Yields"

VP Congress: Session 5, Proposal 27 Problem: Some abilities in the game say they give "All Yields", but what is given as "All Yields" is not consistent. Some abilities include :c5goldenage: :tourism: as part of all yields, while some dont Here are all the abilities that only give 6 yields as...

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[Vote] - (5-28) Golden Age Removal Series: Increase the Cost of Golden Ages

Voting Instructions Players, please cast your votes in the poll above. Vote "Yea" for every proposal you'd be okay with if it were implemented. Vote "Nay" if you'd be okay if these proposals weren't implemented. You can vote for any number of options. All votes are public. If you wish, you can...

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[Vote] - (5-30) Golden Age Removal Series: Remove GAPs From Luxury Monopoly Resources

VP Congress: Session 5, Proposal 30 current situation: Some luxury resource monopolies gives +25% GA length and +2 :c5goldenage: GAP on the resource tile. Proposal: Remove the +2 :c5goldenage: GAP on the resource tile Increase the GA length bonus to 30% (no changes to Imperialism or...

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[Vote] - (5-31) Golden Age Removal Series: Remove GAPs From Artistry Policy Tree

VP Congress: Session 5, Proposal 31 Current situation: There are 4 sources of :c5goldenage: Golden Age Points per turn in the Artistry tree: - Humanism: +3 :c5goldenage: to Great Works of Literature - Heritage: +4:c5goldenage: and :tourism: to Universities - Scaler: +2:c5goldenage:1:c5science...

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[Vote] - (5-32) Golden Age Removal Series: Remove GAP From Mastery Belief

VP Congress: Session 5, Proposal 32 Current Situation: Mastery Belief gives +1 of each respective specialist's main yield type and +1 :c5goldenage: GAP Proposal: Remove the +1:c5goldenage:GAP to specialists Replace with +3:c5gold: Gold if the City has at least1 Specialist. Rationale...

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Works along with:

(5-CP) Increase the Cost of the First Golden Age

Counterproposal of: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/5-33-golden-age-removal-series-increase-the-cost-of-golden-ages.684456/ Potentially conflicts with: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/5-32-golden-age-removal-series-remove-gap-and-tourism-from-all-yields.684455/...

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[Vote] - (5-33) Golden Age Removal Series: Stadium Nerf

VP Congress: Session 5, Proposal 33 Works along with: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/5-34-golden-age-removal-series-gartist-bulb-reduction.684457/ https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/5-34a-counterproposal-change-great-artist-bulb-formula.684473/ Current Stadium: +2500 :c5goldenage...

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Current Great Artist bulb formula:
Base = total per turn and instant and gained in the last 10 turns. Note that does NOT contribute to this.
Modifier: +20% per themed Great Work set
Minimum half of the cost of the first Golden Age
Scaling with game speed

Proposed Great Artist bulb formula:
Base = 3x total per turn and instant gained in the last 10 turns.
Modifier: +10% per themed Great Work set
Minimum half of the cost of the first Golden Age
Scaling with game speed

Rationale:
I agree with @pineappledan that there is a problem of perpetual GAs in the late game. I do NOT agree that is the problem and that it should not be a yield. On the other hand, I think should be more distinct from and not be a strictly worse version of it.
Other than the very first Golden Age, early/mid game Golden Ages feel right. Which means we only need to increase the first Golden Age cost (refer to my other GA counterproposal) and adjust lategame acquisition, which mainly comes from Great Artist bulbs and Stadium (refer to yet another of my GA counterproposals)
Tourism is currently counted in Great Artist bulb formula for some unknown reason. It's inconsistent with other Great People yield bulbs, which only count the yield type it's giving out. Plus, with the theming modifier in the formula, Great Works contribute both to the base and the modifier, which results in the current lategame explosion. We should focus more on alone, so civs can benefit from Golden Ages without going for CV.
Counting more helps to distinguish and

 

[Stalker0]

MAGI: I don't think this proposal conflicts with the various GAP ones (other than the direct artist change you are counterproposing). While implementing all of those proposals and this might overnerfed GAP in general, there is no functional conflict. If people want to pound GAP into the ground by implementing all of these proposals and your GA nerf they could.

@axatin @Hinin for their thoughts. @Recursive

 

[azum4roll]

By conflict I mean they should all be lumped into a single poll.

 

[Rekk]

I do think it's fine that GAP is a worse Happiness. In fact, with all these proposals removing as much per-turn GAP as possible, it essentially becomes Happiness in the form of instant yields (and similarly, instant yield science is a worse version of oer-turn science since it doesn't count towards needs).

Therefore, you could add the player's Happiness to the value calculated for a Great Age.

 

[pineappledan]

I do NOT agree that is the problem and that it should not be a yield. On the other hand, I think should be more distinct from and not be a strictly worse version of it.
[...]
Counting more helps to distinguish and

You are not fixing anything by making GAP augment things outside of happiness. That only makes the GA system harder to understand, more artificial, and more abstracted from anything it could possibly be meant to signify in real life.
Happiness is a real thing in the real world. Golden Age Points are not.
You aren't proposing a clean split between happiness and GAP, you're proposing to make and strengthen ways in which 1 does something the other doesn't and vice versa. That's adding complexity for complexity's sake.
GAPs are better used as the subset of happiness that just contributes to golden ages, and can be given as an instant yield version of Happiness. That is easier to understand and more elegant than creating categories where GAPs do things that Happiness doesn't.
As a comparison, think of Border Growth Points, which do nothing other than function as a strict subset of culture. If we created abilities that scale off BGP but Not Culture, that would be confusing. It would blow up a clean category.

I support removing from the calculation, but should be added in its place.
If GAPs are contributing to something that happiness does not, then what should be done is include happiness in the calculation.

 

[azum4roll]

Happiness is not a yield, and you cannot use CvPlayer::getYieldPerTurnHistory to get the happiness "gained" from the last 10 turns.

 

[pineappledan]

It might require adding a tracker for happiness turn history. Sounds doable.

 

[ma_kuh]

The Artistry proposal includes a bid for new code for converting excess Happiness into GAP; if that passes, changing the baseline from Happiness => GAP (implicitly) to "100% of Happiness added as GAP" would factor into the existing GA bulb formula, right?

Scaler:
Remove 2 per city per level
Replace with +20% progress towards Golden Ages from Excess happiness on Empire per level
ie. when fully adopted, Artistry makes each point of happiness in excess of needs contribute 2GAP instead of 1This ability is New Code

 

[pineappledan]

That would depend on how a DLL modder coded it. We’ll see if I can get a sponsor.

I would assume the easiest and most practical way to implement such a proposal would be with a yield table that simply gives GAP for every in excess of on empire each turn.

 

[azum4roll]

I sponsor this.

It's just removing 1 line and changing another in the DLL, and changing another line in SQL. Should still count as Easy right?

 

[pineappledan]

Proposed Great Artist bulb formula:
Base = 3x total per turn and instant gained in the last 10 turns.

While I have gone on record saying that there are too many sources of GAPs in the game, it’s still possible that you could have no sources.

There are almost no sources of from buildings or tiles until late game. No ancient era or industrial trees give GAPs, fealty doesn’t give any, and there are religious beliefs you could pick that have no on them. It is possible to play a game without any GAPs, and even do so while unlocking the GArtist faith purchase.

So what does this new formula do in the event that your GAPs per turn is zero?

 

[pineappledan]

Happiness is not a yield, and you cannot use CvPlayer::getYieldPerTurnHistory to get the happiness "gained" from the last 10 turns.

I thought about this, and I’m not sure that matters. I think you could just take gross happiness on the turn your GArtist was born and multiply that.

unhappiness moves and jumps around quite a bit because it is pegged on growth and doesn’t reset until the next is born, but Happiness is pretty inflexible. There is no such thing as an instant source, and it grows only in small increments. There would be almost no ways to manipulate it in order to pump it up for a bulb, other than maybe to build a bunch of public works just before your GA is born.

Making the GArtist bulb a combination of gross and GAP per turn makes the most sense to me. That solves your issue of potentially having no GAPs to use as the base value for the bulb.

 

[axatin]

Proposal was combined with other proposals for voting master thread.