[Vote] (6-66) Revision of the Celtic Pantheons

[Achico]

Unfortunately, I did not receive feedback on the Celtic pantheons in the workshop, so after slightly modifying it, I post it right here.

Since this proposal is aimed at improving several related pantheons, they are all described in one topic.

Belief	Current	Proposed	Reasoning
(Celtic) Bran, the Sleeping Guardian	+25% increase in City Ranged Combat Strength and +25% Growth. +15 Culture and Gold when a Citizen is born, scaling with Era. +1 Happiness per following City. +5 Food from Ceilidh Hall.	Renaming to Dagda, the All-Father for thematical reasons +25% increase in City Ranged Combat Strength +25% Growth in every City +15 Culture and Gold when a Citizen is born, scaling with Era. +1 Production and Gold for every 4 Citizens in a City +1 Happiness per following City. +5 Food from Ceilidh Hall.	+25% RCS looks weird for growth-focused pantheon but it fits well to the healing below. Therefore moved here +15 gold when a citizen is born stucks with progress finisher therefore changed to 1 Gold for every 4 Citizens and + 1for every 4 Citizens to compensate 25% RCS
(Celtic) Dagda, the All-Father	+1 Culture, Gold, Production, Science in the Capital, and for every 4 Followers of your Pantheon in owned Cities. +5HP healed per turn in Friendly Territory. +2 Happiness from Ceilidh Hall.	Renaming to Bran, the Sleeping Guardian for thematical reasons +1 Culture, Gold, Production, Science in the Capital, and for every 4 Followers of your Pantheon in owned Cities. +25% increase in City Ranged Combat Strength. +10HP healed per turn in Friendly Territory. +2 Happiness from Ceilidh Hall.	+25% RCS moved because it looks more appropriate here +10HP instead of +5HP to make these part equal to "God of Protection"
(Celtic) Epona, the Great Mare	+3 Border Growth in every City. Receive +10 Science, Culture, and Food when your Borders expand, scaling with Era. +5 Border Growth from Ceilidh Hall.	+3 Border Growth in every City. Receive +10 Science, Culture, and Food when your Borders expand, scaling with Era. Two-adjacent bonus gives +1 additional Production to Mines, Farms and Lumber Mills +5 Border Growth from Ceilidh Hall.	Current pantheon gives you nothing exept instant yields, and is also close to other civs UA and tenets but it's not a problem Two-adjacent bonus implies the presence of large territories of different types, therefore, it may come in handy
(Celtic) Manannan, Son of the Sea	+3 Food, Production and Gold in Coastal Cities +1 Production and Gold for every 2 Citizens working Water tiles in your Cities. +2 Great Admiral Points from Ceiliah Hall.	+3 Food, Production and Gold in Coastal Cities +1 Production from Water tiles in your Cities and +1 additional Gold from Water resources. +2 Great Admiral Points from Ceiliah Hall.	In this case we have an interesting situation where it could be more convenient to use “Rhiannon, the Sovereign” when you have coastal Cities (it provide +1 gold and production to every resource). So, to make it more logical it’s proposed to change 1 Prod and Gold per 2 citizen working Water tiles to + 1 prod from all water tiles and +1 additional Gold from Water resources..
		New pantheon Cailleach, the Queen of Winter +1 Food, Production, Science and Culture from Snow tiles, +1 Food and Production from Tundra tiles +1 Gold and Culture from Quarries and Mines on Resources +5 Tourism from Ceilidh Hall	New pantheon is based on Pictish Warrior terrain bonuses and combine some standard pantheons. It makes cold regions very attractive to Celts (as well as water or forest's tiles in other pantheons) Since there are not so many snow tiles, and the closest bonus to them can be obtained only in the medieval era, this large bonus to them is quite reasonable. Adding tourism to Ceilidh Hall justified by unusual location of potential snow cities.

Actually all the celtic pantheons are somehow imbalanced. The changes will only equalize these pantheons with the rest of the Celts (I hope)

Complex Proposal: DLL + Database Changes

 

[pineappledan]

increasing working radius of cities is a massive increase in processing and turn times. This would also stack with tradition to 5 radius in the capital, which is even more wacky.

I would guess that either makes this unsponsorable, or an automatic veto, because you’re proposing something that will destabilize the mod.

Re: the balance of what you have proposed, Dagda is already one of the strongest pantheons, and you are mistaken in thinking it needs a buff like this. You are sleeping on that 2 to Ceilidh hall.

Your Bran proposal adds a pop scaler, so it has both yields on birth and a yield per pop. You could just adjust the amount of the instant yield, but have elected instead to make Bran behave the same as Ogma. I think we can balance pantheons without making them homogenous.

I agree that Epona needs a buff, but I think this misses the mark. You should start by increasing the BGP in all cities to +5. I would also suggest remove the from border expansion, since it is too close to Russia’s UA, and make it something like 20 on border growth.

 

[Rekk]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Epona is a non-starter.

 

[Achico]

Thank you for the answer

So, in the case when the possible change may provoke some technical issue I have no choice. This working range part will be changed.

Dagda: You’re right, these additional yields in Capital are unnecessary (Changed to standard). But the parts with RCS and heal are still there.

Bran: I just don’t like the idea of instant yield that much, especially when they stuck with each other (like Aztec UA+”God of war” for example), therefore a pop scaler was proposed. Homogenous elements are not always for the worse.

Epona… that’s hurt. Okay… Science is too close to Russia’s UA. But Gold is too close to Spanish UA and to “imperium” tenet. Rising Culture also not a good idea because it looks like: “We use BGP instead of Culture to gain some Culture”. It’s weird. Remaining food also wouldn’t benefit much.

Since I don’t see how to make these BGP work, I propose to change the pantheon itself.

New one is based on Pictish Warrior terrain bonuses and combination of Stars and Sky, Craftsmen and Earth Mother’s elements to make something like Cernunnos but for the harsh climate.
BGP from from Ceilidh Hall replaced with tourism because “Oh, there are crazy frostbitten Celts, it's interesting”

Now Epona becomes Cailleach, the Queen of Winter

+2 Science and Production from Snow tiles,

+1 Food and Culture from Tundra tiles

+1 Gold and Culture from Quarries and Mines on Resources

+5 Tourism from Ceilidh Hall

If the calculations are correct, we get about the same amount of yields as from Cernunnos.

 

[rkkn]

I don't think it's a problem for Epona to have science, any more than I think it's a problem for Morrigan to overlap with the Aztecs, Danes, and Romans. Cernunnos overlaps with the Iroquois. Nuada has overlap with Netherlands. Celts have a whole lot of UA variations. Removing every bit of overlap is not needed. They still have their own unique aspects.

 

[adan_eslavo]

I don't think it's a problem for Epona to have science, any more than I think it's a problem for Morrigan to overlap with the Aztecs, Danes, and Romans. Cernunnos overlaps with the Iroquois. Nuada has overlap with Netherlands. Celts have a whole lot of UA variations. Removing every bit of overlap is not needed. They still have their own unique aspects.

Yeah, this is going into weird direction when "something has similar ability". What's wrong with that?
With so many factors in the game, we simply cannot avoid overlapping.

 

[Achico]

I understand that you are right and there is nothing wrong with rare similarities.

This confuses me to a lesser extent than the fact that Epona is currently being redesigned to give a bunch of territories and does not receive a specific advantage from the wide expanses.

To be honest, I had an idea to improve the Epona by adding 1 bonus tile radius around forts, but i guess that would cause problems with stability of mod like from ordinary +1 radius.

So, I choose +1 yield from two-adjacent bonus. Now it might look something like this

+3 Border Growth in every City.
Receive +10 Science, Culture, and Food when your Borders expand, scaling with Era.
Two-adjacent bonus gives +1 additional Production to Mines, Farms and Lumber Mills
+5 Border Growth from Ceilidh Hall.

In this case previously proposed Cailleah moved below and create an additional pantheon (with some changes)

+1 Food, Production, Science and Culture from Snow tiles,
+1 Food and Production from Tundra tiles
+1 Gold and Culture from Quarries and Mines on Resources
+5 Tourism from Ceilidh Hall

 

[Recursive]

Hmm. Sponsored.

 

[Rekk]

Two-adjacent bonus gives +1 additional Production to Mines, Farms and Lumber Mills

This is a very awkward ability.

 

[hokath]

Agree with Rekk, but I like the Winter Queen one so much I'm going to vote yes anyway.

 

[adan_eslavo]

There's also Manannan's bonus to water tiles resources, so maybe we finally get "SeaResource" column in Resources table. There's a long awaited feature request about that, so we wouldn't have to manually point them

 

[azum4roll]

Ugh, that's a lot of new code. Are you going to add a RequiresResource boolean to individual tables?

 

[adan_eslavo]

This is a very awkward ability.

I suppose this will be revised during the coding phase be the dev? I can't even imagine how it would work.

 

[Rekk]

The adjacency boost (on mines, no less) craters this proposal for me.

 

[dostillevi]

Yea from me, but that adjacency bonus might need revisiting in a future congress. I'd also be an enthusiastic yes to the winter queen if it were proposed separately. The other changes feel less important.