(7-09a) Shoshone and Huns Change

[pineappledan]

Counterproposal to this:

(7-08b/7-30d) Polynesia/Shoshone changes

This proposal is being edited! Please come back later. Counterproposal to: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/7-08-maori-warrior-rework.688867/ https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/7-08a-maori-warrior-scout-replacement.688954/...

forums.civfanatics.com

This is now a counterproposal to something that is a counterproposal to one of my counterproposals.
What a terrible web we have woven.

Spoiler Shoshone :

Current Shoshone UA:

• Cities claim up to 8 tiles on Founding and 4 tiles on Conquest.
• All Recon Units can choose rewards from Ancient Ruins.
• Units gain +20% Combat Strength within 3 tiles of an owned Encampment. (note: 3 tile radius is a bug)

Proposed Shoshone UA (changes Underlined)

• Claim up to 4 tiles whenever you Gain a City (4 on settle/4 on conquest, down from 8 on settle/4 on conquest)
• Claim adjacent unowned land tiles when Cities claim a tile of the same type. (moved from Huns)
• Units gain +20% Combat Strength within 2 tiles of an owned Encampment.
• All Recon Units can choose rewards from Ancient Ruins.

Spoiler Shoshone rationale :

• Equalize the settle/capture free tiles to 4/4. It saves on precious text space, and the star of the show is now the bonus adjacent tile picker which is moved over from the Huns.
• Reducing the combat radius from 3 tiles to 2 is more like a bug fix. The original proposal was to set it to 2, but it was implemented at 3. That amount of projection this gives is excessive, 3 is practically everywhere.
• I don't like the ruins picker; with how ruins were rebalanced it just seems pointless. I would remove it if it were up to me, but I don't think it's hurting anything that much and some people really like it.

Spoiler Huns :

Current Huns UA:

• Inflict +100% and receive -50% War Weariness.
• +10% Combat Strength for each subsequent attack against a single target during a turn.
• Claim adjacent unowned land tiles when Cities claim a tile of the same type.

Current Eki

• 500 Build Time (Divided by 90 for an unmodified Worker, rounded up to 6 Turns)
• Must be built on flat grassland/plains with no access to fresh water.
• May be built in neutral tiles adjacent to Hunnic territory, encouraging cities to expand to that improvement.
• +1 Food
• +1 Production
• +1 Culture
• +1 Production and +1 Gold if built next to 2 Ekis.
• +1 Food and Production and -100 Build Time at Chivalry.
• +1 Food at Fertilizer.
• +3 Production at Robotics.

Proposed Huns UA (changes Underlined)

• Inflict +100% and receive -50% War Weariness.
• +10% Combat Strength for each subsequent attack against a single target during a turn.
• Gain 1 for every 2 damage dealt to enemy Cities, scaling with Era.

note: The yields are given to the city owning the unit that deals damage, or capital if none is found

Proposed Eki (changes Underlined)

• 600 Build Time (Divided by 90 for an unmodified Worker, rounded up to 7 Turns)
• Must be built on flat grassland/plains with no access to fresh water.
• May be built in neutral tiles adjacent to Hunnic territory. Instantly Claims the tile on completion if not already owned. (NewOwner ability)
• +1 Food
• +1 Production
• +1 Culture
• +1 Production and +1 Gold if built next to 2 Ekis.
• +1 Food and Production and -100 Build Time at Chivalry.
• +1 Food at Fertilizer.
• +3 Production at Robotics.

Spoiler Huns Rationale :

• With the Huns tile claimer gone, the Eki's ability to guide this claimer by being built outside your land doesn't have much of a purpose except to give you some adjacencies sooner. If the tile just got automatically claimed then there is a rather strong reason to keep this ability around
• It would remain to be seen how abusable this would be, but Ekis are blocked by resources, rough terrain, and rivers, so they do have some hard limits that prevent them from just being spread everywhere in unbroken lines. It would also take a very long time to chain them out like that, and for not much benefit. I propose to slow down the improvement speed a bit to compensate.

Spoiler Sponsor notes: :

The new damage on Hun city attacks is new code, but should work similar to existing gold from city damage ability which is on a unit promotion.
The rest is reshuffling or number changes on existing abilities.
The NewOwner ability appears to work, but apparently it makes the improvement built on the tile permanent (???) That should probably be changed in the code.

Complex Proposal: DLL + Database Changes needed, pineappledan will assist with database changes

 

[ma_kuh]

Would now be a good time to swing for "Clearing a Barbarian Encampment produces an Ancient Ruins reward" in place of the Ancient Ruins picking?

 

[pineappledan]

counterpropose away

FWIW, I don't much like the idea, because I feel like it comes too close to Songhai's bonus encampment clearing gold.
I personally advocated for the Shoshone to allow all units to pick up ruins.

 

[ma_kuh]

I'll get right on that counterproposal, just need to figure out a way to thread Carthage or Polynesia into it to complete the circle.

 

[Legen]

Would now be a good time to swing for "Clearing a Barbarian Encampment produces an Ancient Ruins reward" in place of the Ancient Ruins picking?

FWIW, I don't much like the idea, because I feel like it comes too close to Songhai's bonus encampment clearing gold.

In other words, you should make a Shoshone + Songhai counterproposal, and don't forget to mention that the (7-58) Songhai nerf proposal chain is also being counter proposed.

 

[azum4roll]

BRB making a counterproposal that changes the Shoshone UU into Sea Beggar.

 

[Heinz_Guderian]

PD I thought you were the proponent of fun. Picking ruin rewards is fun. "It's fun! Look at the fun we're having" -Pocatello and Tyrion

 

[pineappledan]

Hence why I don’t want to spoil other people’s fun.

Having an extra click in a pop up window to pick rewards that are more or less balanced against each other is not my definition of fun. I have pop-up blocker on my browser for a reason.

 

[Stalker0]

Hence why I don’t want to spoil other people’s fun.

Having an extra click in a pop up window to pick rewards that are more or less balanced against each other is not my definition of fun. I have pop-up blocker on my browser for a reason.

Hehe then NEVER play old world

 

[Zuizgond]

Not directly related to the proposal but I played with the Shoshone recently and noticed that encampments give the +20% CS even if it has been pillaged. Do you know if it is intended?

 

[pineappledan]

Intended, yeah

 

[rkkn]

oh the Huns proposal looks very fun!
Getting rewards for the siege itself even if it's not successful is very nice. and goes well with the war weariness thing. Means you don't necessarily have to "win" the war to be winning it. Just keep the siege going and you're set. You get culture and the enemy gradually gets more war weariness.
And ability to have your workers go out and claim land also sounds fun.

 

[Stalker0]

Would the damage to yield bonus be limited to "unique" damage (similar to how you can't conquer a city, lose it, and reconquer and the get the conquer bonus again and again).

Without it, it seems like optimal huns play would be just to blockade a city, attack it, let it heal, and just keep attacking it while never ending the war. Now maybe we are fine with that (its certainly a unique way to play), but probably would get tedious after all.

 

[Rekk]

Without it, it seems like optimal huns play would be just to blockade a city, attack it, let it heal, and just keep attacking it while never ending the war. Now maybe we are fine with that (its certainly a unique way to play), but probably would get tedious after all.

This is somewhat why Denmark lost its old gold when attacking bonus.

 

[pineappledan]

Without it, it seems like optimal huns play would be just to blockade a city, attack it, let it heal, and just keep attacking it while never ending the war. Now maybe we are fine with that (its certainly a unique way to play), but probably would get tedious after all.

Arguably that gives Huns something to do while their weariness bonus stacks up and their enemy rips itself apart.

After that, the major lever to pull for Hun balance is ratcheting up WW

 

[azum4roll]

let it heal

Then you have to retreat your units, which gives them a chance to recover.

Similar to Denmark's pillage.

Getting rewards for the siege itself even if it's not successful is very nice. and goes well with the war weariness thing. Means you don't necessarily have to "win" the war to be winning it. Just keep the siege going and you're set. You get culture and the enemy gradually gets more war weariness.

That was my idea. The proposed Huns UA is identical to mine.

 

[rkkn]

That was my idea. The proposed Huns UA is identical to mine.

Oh I see. I didn't see it.
probably because of the immensely huge amount of text not divided into collapsable sections, plus the "This proposal is being edited! Please come back later." at the top that discourages reading through it

 

[azum4roll]

Oh I see. I didn't see it.
probably because of the immensely huge amount of text not divided into collapsable sections, plus the "This proposal is being edited! Please come back later." at the top that discourages reading through it

Oops I forgot to delete the edited part.

 

[Stalker0]

Then you have to retreat your units, which gives them a chance to recover.

Why would I retreat? The idea is that you dominate an area, and then milk a remaining city till like the end of time, while the enemy is swallowed in WW.

 

[azum4roll]

Cities heal much faster with no enemy units nearby.

And you gotta at least unblockade it anyway.

War Weariness also caps out at the value of the city.