[Vote] (7-23) Council of Elders Rebalance

[hokath]

I sponsor this.

Moderator Action: Sponsorship is invalid (DLL changes are required). - Recursive

 

[jarcast2]

I gave a look at this and it seems more than just SQL.

 

[hokath]

I thought that, and then I remembered something that used to exist, and now you have me doubting it again.
Need to get back to my computer to check the DLL tables.

edit 1:
There are two versions of this table

Spoiler :

edit 2:
CvPlayer.cpp shows they do this for the instant yield

Spoiler :

So using the "expo" version of the table ignores the funky scaler, but has no cap (CityScalerLimiter) on it. Given it's only used for this one Founder belief, we would want to edit the non-expo version's scaler code.
Then we also want era scaling, which requires swapping a false to a true in CvReligionClasses.cpp

Spoiler :

So yes it is a complex DLL + sql job.
Clearly, I could make these changes, but I've never worked out how to actually compile modified DLL, so I can't test it. So could someone else help me?

 

[azum4roll]

Sponsored.

 

[Stalker0]

So lets consider the scaling of this one versus the current.

My assumption was that you would complete conversion of about 7 cities in the classical era (which is 3 missionaries, or 600 faith). so cities 8+ would have medieval scaling for the proposals new bonus.

Cities	Orig	Orig Cumu	Proposed	Proposed Cumu
1​	20​	20​	5​	5​
2​	21​	41​	10​	15​
3​	22​	63​	15​	30​
4​	23​	86​	20​	50​
5​	24​	110​	25​	75​
6​	25​	135​	30​	105​
7​	26​	161​	35​	140​
8​	27​	188​	80​	220​
9​	28​	216​	90​	310​
10​	29​	245​	100​	410​
11​	30​	275​	100​	510​
12​	31​	306​	100​	610​
13​	32​	338​	100​	710​
14​	33​	371​	100​	810​
15​	34​	405​	100​	910​
16​	35​	440​	100​	1010​
17​	36​	476​	100​	1110​
18​	37​	513​	100​	1210​
19​	38​	551​	100​	1310​
20​	39​	590​	100​	1410​

So the proposal provides weaker initial yields until the 8th city (realistically once medieval starts is more accurate), and then from then on scales better than the current.

This creates a few effects.

1) This would weaken CoE from its niche as an "early wonder" grabber. For example, this would weaken its use for an oracle play as an example.
2) I would argue the scaling here is superior to the current CoE, it kicks in earlier than I thought it did at first glance and does scale quite a bit better once you get even a few cities under your belt.
3) One big change here is that the current CoE doesn't care about holding on to religion, its just cares about that initial conversion. This version makes it more simnilar to other believes where holding on to cities becomes important.


At the end of the day, I do think I judged this version too harshly, it is better than I thought, and I think overall the yields it generates makes up for the lack of those initial few yields.

BUT.... I still think this change will ironically make CoE worse. Right now CoE has a few niches that it can play with, it can play for that early wonder grab, and it can enjoy the idea of conversion without maintenance. This new version simply makes it more like other beleifs....but those other beliefs still do it better! and so all we have now is a belief that has no niche it is actually superior at.

 

[hokath]

Your table is wrong I think. The scaling on the original is 20 plus a percentage equal to the number of cities squared. So 10 cities is 10^2 % i.e. 100%

 

[azum4roll]

Cities​	Original​	Original (Cumulative)​	Proposed​	Proposed (Cumulative)​
1​	20​	20​	5​	5​
2​	20​	40​	10​	15​
3​	21​	61​	15​	30​
4​	23​	84​	20​	50​
5​	25​	109​	25​	75​
6​	27​	136​	30​	105​
7​	29​	165​	35​	140​
8​	32​	197​	80​	220​
9​	36​	233​	90​	310​
10​	40​	273​	100​	410​
11​	44​	317​	100​	510​
12​	48​	365​	100​	610​
13​	53​	418​	100​	710​
14​	59​	477​	100​	810​
15​	65​	542​	100​	910​
16​	71​	613​	100​	1010​
17​	77​	690​	100​	1110​
18​	84​	774​	100​	1210​
19​	92​	866​	100​	1310​
20​	100​	966​	100​	1410​
21​	108​	1074​	100​	1510​
22​	116​	1190​	100​	1610​
23​	125​	1315​	100​	1710​
24​	135​	1450​	100​	1810​
25​	145​	1595​	100​	1910​

​

In graph form, red = current, blue = proposed, assuming still Medieval at the end.

 

[rkkn]

My assumption was that you would complete conversion of about 7 cities in the classical era (which is 3 missionaries, or 600 faith)

so this probably varies by difficulty. I think it's more like 1 missionary in classical on Deity

 

[hokath]

Looks more like what I had. I chose the numbers to make them similar. The big change is that converting in later eras now actually does something for you.

 

[azum4roll]

Also depends on map size. You get a lot more triggers on huge.

 

[hokath]

In graph form, red = current, blue = proposed, assuming still Medieval at the end.

Right. I don't know what's a good number for Renaissance. Highly variable I imagine based on your science output (which varies a lot in the early game e.g. if you pick Mosques). Note also this is a science generating founder.

Also depends on map size. You get a lot more triggers on huge.

Yes and of course pangaea versus continents type maps. Which I know we've talked about but perhaps hasn't been mentioned in the thread for everyone else to think about.
The tendency generally being that in maps with more ocean there's less passive spread and therefore I would claim Council of Elders' first-time conversions later in the game are more common.

 

[andersw]

Current version feels very weak as wide (teocratic and holy law scales are both way better) and I dont see much difference with this version.