[Complex] (7-NS) Underground Sect as an Enhancer belief

[Legen]

Counterproposal to (7-41) Remove Inquisition, New Reformation "Underground Sects".

Related to (7-41a) Inquisition rework.

Spoiler Inquisition enhancer belief :

Inquisitors cost 33% less Faith, and generate 25 Gold per converted Citizen when Removing Heresy. Your Spies exert +52 Religious Pressure on the Cities they occupy (Standard Speed), and +2 Happiness if stationed in a foreign City.

Proposal

• Inquisition renamed to "Underground Sect", with the following changes:
  • Remove the cost reduction on Inquisitors and the gold for converting citizens with Remove Heresy.
  • Add "Receive 100 Spy Points".
  • Spies in foreign cities also grant +5 Gold.

Spoiler How the belief will look like :

Underground Sect (Enhancer belief)
"Receive 100 Spy Points. Your Spies exert +52 Religious Pressure on the Cities they occupy (Standard Speed), and +2 Happiness and 5 Gold if stationed in a foreign City."

• If proposal (7-41a) Inquisition rework passes, this proposal adds a new enhancer belief with the above text and effects, instead of changing the Inquisition belief.

Rationale

My concern with the original proposal (7-41) is that Reformation beliefs can share their effect to other civilizations, which can result in the Spy effects (especially the Spy points) being granted to any other civilization you spread your religion to. These Spy effects are better kept restricted to the religion's founder/owner, which is the case for Enhancer beliefs.

The extra Spy Points is kept from the original proposal, as this Enhancer may be earned before Renaissance; having a base addition of Spy points means this belief won't be locked behind a tech requirement in order to work. The exact power of the extra Spy Points is still in flux; the Espionage rework is recent and the current balance is off as a result; other proposals exist to adjust (often downwards) the benefit of Spies, so the Spy Points are likely to have less power in future patches.

The addition of Gold from having Spies operating in foreign cities is meant to ensure this Enhancer has a reliable benefit regardless of the state of Espionage balance, and is stronger than the current Inquisition, which the original proposal pointed out to be weak at the moment.

This proposal can co-exist with proposal (7-41a) Inquisition rework, as they aim for very different Enhancer beliefs with no overlapping effects. As such, should that one also pass, this one is changed to add a new belief, instead of modifying the Inquisition belief that proposal (7-41a) reworks.

 

[azum4roll]

You can still lose an enhancer belief, which won't remove the Spy Points.

 

[Legen]

Yes, but it is a less frequent situation than spreading your religion to other civs.

 

[rkkn]

he's saying that you'll effectively keep part of the belief even if you lose it
I think that's fine though? like units purchased with Zealotry aren't going to get deleted either.

 

[Stalker0]

he's saying that you'll effectively keep part of the belief even if you lose it
I think that's fine though? like units purchased with Zealotry aren't going to get deleted either.

yeah this was my argument, its not like every single religion bonus is lost when you lose the religion.

 

[Legen]

Indeed, and the Spy Points is only part of the belief, meant to keep it relevant pre-Renaissance. The rest of the Enhancer's effects is lost until you recover the Holy City.

 

[pineappledan]

Spies still remain enough of a tech/era-linked bonus that their proper place is on a reformation. The free spy given by the proposed belief notwithstanding, boosting abilities players have no/minimal access to until renaissance is a complete nonstarter for an enhancer.

 

[Legen]

Players can get spies at Medieval with Statecraft, which about 1/3 of the civs will on average. Moreover, the Renaissance part is when anyone in the world reaches the era. It doesn't have to be you, nor you need to have met that player.

 

[msw1]

Yeah I don't have a problem with it. You can get spies with your first policy in a medieval era tree, which is probably around the time you're enhancing your religion. Other civs still have maxed out security if no one's in the Renaissance yet.

 

[azum4roll]

Enhance can happen in (early) Classical though.