A bunch of disconnected questions

PPQ_Purple

Purple Cube
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Oct 11, 2008
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I am working on a mod and I have a bunch of seemingly disconnected questions to ask the community because honestly I have a very specific play style and I don't think most people play like me. So I need to know how you guys play to tune things. So here they are:
  • When do most people start warring? As in what era? I usually don't start serious big conquests before the medieval. But like do you war in classical?
    This is not counting extreme scenarios like duel maps and speedrunning and stuff of course, or the odd situation of spawning really close to Shaka.

  • How much impact do late game religions like Confucianism play as opposed to the early game ones? I personally notice they don't often get much purchase simply because everyone has a religion by the time they arrive. So should I focus on having all my religions spawn early on like FFH to make them more competitive.

  • If you are not intentionally going for time or space race how often do games actually reach the modern era?

  • Which buildings and civics do you think are most over and underpowered?

  • Some corporations are clearly massively more useful than others. Is this fine or do you think they should all be balanced roughly equally?

  • What are the essential must have civics, buildings etc. vs the ones you should avoid and why?

    I'll think of more stuff eventually once I have written these down.
 
All for BTS SP

* The most used units are HAs, Elepult, Cuirs, Cavs and Cannons.
* For me Confu & Tao are usually more important than early religions. That's cos many peoples like bulbing Philo for various reasons. Islam is usually irrelevant, Christianity can play a role for AP games.
* Games rarely reach the modern era (maybe 1/10) unless they are very hard maps like @Lain plays them on deity.
* OP buildings: Terrace or maybe granary in general. Civics only slavery. Underpowered in comparison: too much to mention ;)
* no opinion on corps (see modern era..happens rarely for me)
* gold buildings (banks, grocer etc) are often too expensive. There's really only one must have building for many..granary.
 
  • When do most people start warring? As in what era? I usually don't start serious big conquests before the medieval. But like do you war in classical?
    This is not counting extreme scenarios like duel maps and speedrunning and stuff of course, or the odd situation of spawning really close to Shaka.
When I war depends greatly on the map and proximity of AIs - and to a degree the difficulty, but I mainly play IMM/Deity. On high levels, early wars can be a bit harder so there has to be opportunity cost. But generally, I'd say Renaissance is my more common break-out period.

If you are doing an FFH mod though, base game timings may not translate all that well. For one, FFH can give you some very powerful units early game just from huts and natural wonders along.

  • How much impact do late game religions like Confucianism play as opposed to the early game ones? I personally notice they don't often get much purchase simply because everyone has a religion by the time they arrive. So should I focus on having all my religions spawn early on like FFH to make them more competitive.
In the base game, late religions have little impact usually, even for the human. The exception may be in iso/semi-iso games.

Religions have a lot more flavor and power in FFH, with some of the later ones having some real power stuff like Octopus Overlords and Esus. I don't believe any of the religions can be founded especially early. I'd focus more on balance when it comes to Religion.

  • If you are not intentionally going for time or space race how often do games actually reach the modern era?
They will by default for those VCs. Otherwise, modern rarely comes into play.

  • Which buildings and civics do you think are most over and underpowered?
Slavery, but slavery is far different in FFH and there are a lot more civics in base. Feudalism is one I never use.

  • Some corporations are clearly massively more useful than others. Is this fine or do you think they should all be balanced roughly equally?
There could be more balance sure but I don't think about it much. Sushi and Mining are the ones I use if I ever do. Cereal can be useful if Sushi isn't.

  • What are the essential must have civics, buildings etc. vs the ones you should avoid and why?
Granary.
Slavery (and Caste), HR/Representation and Pacifism
 
Thanks for the responses so far. What I am doing is C&C themed (see my signature) so basically some of the stuff is going to be distributed more evenly along the tech tree. Like for example corporations will start appearing in the classical era equivalent. Hence my question about them. But other than that and a general reshuffle of some stuff the mechanics are going to be mostly vanilla. Well mostly. There will be some unique stuff in there but like not FFH levels of unique.

I am glad that so far my guess about the eras was about right. With most action happening in Medieval and later and finishing before the modern era.

Also, I am a bit surprised about Representation being put on the avoid list. Is it because it's underpowered or just because there are better alternatives in the same category?
 
Also, I am a bit surprised about Representation being put on the avoid list. Is it because it's underpowered or just because there are better alternatives in the same category?
Sorry, that was probably not clear now that I've read the last bullet more closely. All the civics I mentioned at the end are good or essential.

I avoid Emancipation until I can't - imo the most worthless civic. Feudalism I don't even think about. The only time I think Feud has any use is on late-era starts.
 
Sorry, that was probably not clear now that I've read the last bullet more closely. All the civics I mentioned at the end are good or essential.

I avoid Emancipation until I can't - imo the most worthless civic. Feudalism I don't even think about. The only time I think Feud has any use is on late-era starts.
That makes more sense to me. :)
Also, about Feudalism is it underpowered on its own or is it just that both caste system and slavery are so much better that it just can't compete?
 
Feudalism can be useful to get level 2 units with Barracks + civic if you don't have Theology and a widespread state religion, but usually staying in Bureau is better or you don't have the civic yet (Feudalism the technology isn't something you'd start wars with).
 
My bad. I was thinking serfdom.
 
Serfdom you only ever use in late starts, since otherwise losing Slavery or Caste System to make your workers a bit faster is thoroughly not worth it. I have used it in Marathon games, but even there I doubt it's (ever) optimal even if you're Spiritual.
 
My bad. I was thinking serfdom.
Sorry...yep...that is the actual civic I was referring to. ( I think Feud opens both Vassalage and Serfdom)
 
I am working on a mod and I have a bunch of seemingly disconnected questions to ask the community because honestly I have a very specific play style and I don't think most people play like me. So I need to know how you guys play to tune things. So here they are:
  • When do most people start warring? As in what era? I usually don't start serious big conquests before the medieval. But like do you war in classical?
    This is not counting extreme scenarios like duel maps and speedrunning and stuff of course, or the odd situation of spawning really close to Shaka.

  • How much impact do late game religions like Confucianism play as opposed to the early game ones? I personally notice they don't often get much purchase simply because everyone has a religion by the time they arrive. So should I focus on having all my religions spawn early on like FFH to make them more competitive.

  • If you are not intentionally going for time or space race how often do games actually reach the modern era?

  • Which buildings and civics do you think are most over and underpowered?

  • Some corporations are clearly massively more useful than others. Is this fine or do you think they should all be balanced roughly equally?

  • What are the essential must have civics, buildings etc. vs the ones you should avoid and why?

    I'll think of more stuff eventually once I have written these down.
1.) my most common times are Cuirs as I am a firm believer and shameless copycat of that strategy, and with tanks as fast as possible. So, Renaissance and Industrial/early Modern, I guess. I don't really use eras and am not good at even keeping them straight. Other most common is in Ancient if I have a a good opportunity to wipe out an AI with Axes or even something like Chariots. Sometimes I will delay to a Cav attack as they can power through where Cuirs would dead-stop (Rifles+Machinegun defenders).

2.) in my experience almost none. The first 2 religions are obviously the most important but there is often a third outlier, and it's not always Judaism or Confucianism -- sometimes an AI like Izzy or Liz just REALLY wants to swap to Christianity. In the scenario with 2 camps and the third arrives, it often upsets the field a LOT. 2 bloc games are surprisingly stable.

3.) In my games? Like 30-40% of the time? If I can't end the game with a Cuir push sometimes I can transition into Cavs smoothly but other times it's just easier to hang back and go straight to tanks (nothing the AI does beats Tank pushes with Spy support), which gives them time to reach Modern if it keeps going long enough as I kill them off. A few NC games I played here ended up like this, with me running roughshod over AIs trying to hit Culture or Space.

4.) Buildings
-overpowered: pretty much only the Factory. Everything else sits in a good spot (they feel "necessary" when they are relevant) or is weak IMO. the Difference between hammer economy and non-hammer economy is MADE by the Factory (w/power)
-underpowered: all culture buildings sans Library, all EP buildings, most buildings that grant happiness

Civics
-overpowered: Slavery, US, State Property, Pacifism. They fundamentally change the way you CAN play the game
-underpowered: Vassalage (too expensive/bad tradeoff), Serfdom, Environmentalism. You will likely never have a need to or way to benefit from them in most games.

Any of the rest are more or less useful in a specific way -- Police State is good for mass unit spam, Emancipation is actually a late-gate come-back mechanic, I'd even use Theology over Vassalage as you trade less off in the Religion civic category/you may have no call to farm GPPs anyway. Mercantilsim is better than nothing if nobody is trading with you already.

5.) outside of score or having fun I don't see Corps as all that useful in the first place -- they come too late, are too conditional, and are map dependent. Even in non-hammer economy late-games, mass mature Town + US rush-buy spamming doesn't need it to be very strong. It makes the question of their internal balance less important to me, as they seem like novelty much like religions but are not quite as powerful in specific gambits such as spamming GPP or outright winning the game through manipulation of diplo -- Corps don't seem to have any direct interaction with diplomacy themselves fir that matter.

6.)
Buildings:
-get granaries in all your cities eventually. Other things might/can come first as needed (i.e. border pop or Lighthouse, units, etc etc) but any city that grows > granary
-if you go to later stages (i.e hammer economy time) add forge/factory/coal plant (or equivalent)
-only add health buildings as needed post-hammer economy

Everything else is situational depending on whether it comes up or not (lighthouse for coast, Barracks for war, etc), or if you are specifically trying something -- EP buildings are not useless if you are trying to run steal/revolt heavy in the late game, for example, but ARE useless if you aren't. I really like courthouses in the mid-stages or later because they are static reductions on cost in times where costs can be very high (at war, whipping) instead of a net economic improvement that robs me of using the city for unit builds by building Wealth...though that said courthouse are far too expensive to be used earlier and State Property does much of what they do if you hang on to that point.

Civics:
Do
-Slavery. Learn it. Use it. Abuse it. Love it.
-Sprinkle a little Caste + Pacifism as needed for GP
-State Property is one of the best civics period and a viable endgame for almost any "normal" game

Don't
-Serfdom...like why? Ever.
-Mercantilism is a trap unless you are still/already isolated. It can be good with the right gambit (SoL), but unless you're doing that...use Free Market or nothing until SP.
-Vassalage is almost always an expensive trap compared to powering your economy/wonder build power with Bureau or lower expenses instead with Nationhood. The EXP ain't even worth it for the civic swap, get Barracks or use some GGs (settle or attach to group) instead.
 
Buffing CreCon a bit so it can compete with Mining seems worthwhile to me. Sushi vs Cereals already depends on the map.

Also Slavery is wildly overpowered.
 
About slavery. I was thinking of giving it a - to food production from farms and other sources. Since in my setting it's going to be flavored as forced industrialization ala Soviet 5 year plan. So that makes sense lore vise. And I think having your population growth slowed down would serve to keep it useful but not as OP.

What do you guys think?
 
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