Changing gunpowder units

[E66man]

What would people think if units carrying firearms were changed from melee to ranged units with the range starting out as 1 hex, and ranged strength = melee strength? Then your promotions wouldn't be wasted regardless of whatever early-era unit it might have been upgraded from, and help deal with the anomaly that a bowman can kill an enemies that a man with a gun can't (and yes, still true with bow range = 2 and gun range = 1, but still...).

 

[Soronery]

Right now there are two major problems with units.

1. Crossbows have no upgrade where they get to keep their promotions. Same with Chariot archers.
2. No iron. I can have 4 different patches of horses near my capital but I'll be damned if I can get 1 iron without having to scout the entire map and even then it's not rare that I won't have any iron withing 15 tiles of my capital that I can get without DoW or allying with city states.

This basically pigeon holes you into rushing horses.

 

[E66man]

Right now there are two major problems with units.

1. Crossbows have no upgrade where they get to keep their promotions. Same with Chariot archers.
2. No iron. I can have 4 different patches of horses near my capital but I'll be damned if I can get 1 iron without having to scout the entire map and even then it's not rare that I won't have any iron withing 15 tiles of my capital that I can get without DoW or allying with city states.

This basically pigeon holes you into rushing horses.

Not quite sure how this relates to the question I posed...

 

[AbbieRevo]

What would people think if units carrying firearms were changed from melee to ranged units with the range starting out as 1 hex, and ranged strength = melee strength? Then your promotions wouldn't be wasted regardless of whatever early-era unit it might have been upgraded from, and help deal with the anomaly that a bowman can kill an enemies that a man with a gun can't (and yes, still true with bow range = 2 and gun range = 1, but still...).

I like it.

If we really want to carry this model through, then Tanks, AT Guns, Cavalry, and perhaps Gandhi's Death Robot should have the same 1 range as well.

If you think about it, after the gunpowder age begins the only direct attack units would be horses.

Although the problem I'm thinking about is whether it would be wise to remove hp loss for attacking with your doods, after all there have been few battles between gunpowder equipped forces where attacking did not require you to bring yourself under fire.

I wonder if the devs ever experimented with it.

Either way, shouldn't be too hard to whip up a mod and see how it plays.

And of course, there's the question of how the AI will handle it.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Although the problem I'm thinking about is whether it would be wise to remove hp loss for attacking with your doods, after all there have been few battles between gunpowder equipped forces where attacking did not require you to bring yourself under fire.

Have it work like regular combat, such that ranged/other gunpowder can retaliate. More advanced gunpowder slowly gets more ranged. Terrain bonuses still apply. Say muskets get 1 range while rifles/infantry get 2, mechs maybe 3 maybe not.

Not only would this be a more plausible model, but it would better address some of the issues like "knight mobility is so strong it wtfowns stronger units like rifles due to flanking/other bonuses".

 

[testdummy653]

Have it work like regular combat, such that ranged/other gunpowder can retaliate. More advanced gunpowder slowly gets more ranged. Terrain bonuses still apply. Say muskets get 1 range while rifles/infantry get 2, mechs maybe 3 maybe not.

Not only would this be a more plausible model, but it would better address some of the issues like "knight mobility is so strong it wtfowns stronger units like rifles due to flanking/other bonuses".

How would this play out with artillery? Would they have range increase too?
How would attacks on cities play out?
Would you be able to attack ships with these ranged units? (this might be a big problem)
Would have both combat range promotions and melee promotions? (they do different things and having four promotion trees available would be difficult and confusing)

 

[pi-r8]

It would be a great change- if the map was big enough to handle it. Once you give muskets a ranged attack, you have to increase the range of everything else to make things scale properly. So pretty soon you end up with rocket artillery that can fire 10 tiles away- which is OK if the map is on the scale of people's general, but not if 10 tiles is the width of a continent.

 

[aziantuntija]

When the new 1upt combat system for civ5 was revealed over half a year ago i was hoping for something like Sid Meyer's Pirates -like land combat system wich has ranged musket units (cant fire where they cant see), strong melee unit and artillery unit. Those battles were über cool and very very tactical!

 

[Greizer85]

When the new 1upt combat system for civ5 was revealed over half a year ago i was hoping for something like Sid Meyer's Pirates -like land combat system wich has ranged musket units (cant fire where they cant see), strong melee unit and artillery unit. Those battles were über cool and very very tactical!

Iirc Pirates! did not have artillery units. They were in the files (or in the manual), but not activated. Not sure if they were patched or modded in later. With the brainless AI in that game though (much worse than Civ V even!), artillery would have made battles too boring.

Not that they were boring, despite the AI. That remake had many other problems too, but was very addictive while you were into it. Kinda like Civ V tbh. With the Civ games the expectations are a lot higher though, so the flaws are more grating.

As for Civ V, yeah, the muskets need to learn how to shoot, or ranged promotions should be allowed to be reallocated when archery units are upgraded. It was fun shuffling units around in Pirates!, from jungle to jungle or behind rock formations to be safe from melee. It's hard to replicate the tactical battles on Civ's more grand level of representation. I'm sure it can be done, and modders will once they get the tools for it. It all depends on the AI though. If it's not fixed, then nothing else matters.

 

[Beef Hammer]

Have it work like regular combat, such that ranged/other gunpowder can retaliate. More advanced gunpowder slowly gets more ranged. Terrain bonuses still apply. Say muskets get 1 range while rifles/infantry get 2, mechs maybe 3 maybe not.

I like this idea, but still keep the first gunpowder units "melee" since realistically they did all just kinda line up and fire at each other lol. Then increasing to ranged at rifles.

 

[Rudster816]

Heres the problem. When you engange in combat with firearms, it isnt a one way battle, you both fire on each other rather or not your attacking or defending. Ranged units though can attack with immunity against melee units, and can be fired upon ranged units in retaliation, but you they dont typically engage each other like two infantry style units do.

I think gunpowder units should get a +50% defensive bonus (maybe lower) against now gunpowder melee units. This will magnify the need for gunpowder earlier in the game (typically you only need to get it quickish if you dont have iron). It would also make it more realistic because when defending with muskets, you would be able to get an entire volley of shots off before anyone with melee weapons would be able to get close enough to engage you.

 

[smellymummy]

What would people think if units carrying firearms were changed from melee to ranged units with the range starting out as 1 hex, and ranged strength = melee strength? Then your promotions wouldn't be wasted regardless of whatever early-era unit it might have been upgraded from, and help deal with the anomaly that a bowman can kill an enemies that a man with a gun can't (and yes, still true with bow range = 2 and gun range = 1, but still...).

but what will the AI decide to do? range attack or melee? and then think about the player that only uses range on their gunpowder units. never melee attack (even with range=1), so free damage on opponents and not to self. i'll stick with the established method here and say gunpowder+ works just fine as melee

rangedcombat unit upgraded to a melee only unit should get its promotions translated to melee, or at least the xp back. arrows on tanks/destroyers/etc should inflict less damage. these are all generally accepted changes that should of been in

if only the api allowed us to modify ranged combat on the fly (like how we can modify melee combat on the fly) then this whole gunpowder/arrow thing would of been fixed already.

 

[PimpyMicPimp]

The easiest way to fix it, as I see it, is to just add another "sniper" unit. That way, melee -> regular gunpowder units. Archers -> Sniper Gun Powder unit.

 

[Babri]

What would people think if units carrying firearms were changed from melee to ranged units with the range starting out as 1 hex, and ranged strength = melee strength? Then your promotions wouldn't be wasted regardless of whatever early-era unit it might have been upgraded from, and help deal with the anomaly that a bowman can kill an enemies that a man with a gun can't (and yes, still true with bow range = 2 and gun range = 1, but still...).

It seems to be a good idea. But what about adding a retaliation attack when attacking a ranged unit to balance the things up.

 

[MadRat]

I think that the best fix would be having gunpowder infantry units have an "attack without advancing" ability. In essence, they would be doing combat normally (taking damage) but not advancing into the tile. It isn't quite artillery but it does give it the benefit of holding a fixed position while inflicting damage at range - a distinct advantage over melee units.

Rat

 

[lschnarch]

Have it work like regular combat, such that ranged/other gunpowder can retaliate. More advanced gunpowder slowly gets more ranged. Terrain bonuses still apply. Say muskets get 1 range while rifles/infantry get 2, mechs maybe 3 maybe not.

Not only would this be a more plausible model, but it would better address some of the issues like "knight mobility is so strong it wtfowns stronger units like rifles due to flanking/other bonuses".

Missing retaliation fire is indeed "astonishing" taking into account that Panzer General was taken as kind of blueprint for the combat system.

But if we look a bit further...

It would be a great change- if the map was big enough to handle it. Once you give muskets a ranged attack, you have to increase the range of everything else to make things scale properly. So pretty soon you end up with rocket artillery that can fire 10 tiles away- which is OK if the map is on the scale of people's general, but not if 10 tiles is the width of a continent.

... we see that the problem is less with the gunpowder units, but more with the arrow-armed units. I will just say: English Longbow and Cho-Ko-Nu

 

[Mad Hab]

Or they could simply turn "bonus vs. units on the open" into shock and "bonus vs. units on rough" into drill.

Other thing they should add is "return fire" for ranged units when attacked by ranged units. Unless the terrain forbids so, why my ranged units can't retaliate an attack performed by another ranged unit? Only melee troops can think about defending themselves?

Best!

Mad Hab

 

[TheHarshax]

What would people think if units carrying firearms were changed from melee to ranged units with the range starting out as 1 hex, and ranged strength = melee strength? Then your promotions wouldn't be wasted regardless of whatever early-era unit it might have been upgraded from, and help deal with the anomaly that a bowman can kill an enemies that a man with a gun can't (and yes, still true with bow range = 2 and gun range = 1, but still...).

I would not want this. Every depiction I've ever read of musketmen engagements were at limited range. By the time rifleman (bolt-action or otherwise) are on the scene, so are cannons. When rifleman/cannons are prominent on the battlefields, their range scales the battlefield down to 0 hex/1 hexes, engagements.

If you agree with me, then obviously, the map itself should shrink, or be doubly big from the onset, such that cities should have a 6 hex radius. Then ranges would play out thusly:

Warriors:0
Archers:1
Rifleman:1
Cavalry:1
Canons: 2
Artillery: 5
Battleships: 12

 

[glaivemaster]

The easiest way to fix it, as I see it, is to just add another "sniper" unit. That way, melee -> regular gunpowder units. Archers -> Sniper Gun Powder unit.

I've been suggesting this as well, its a good way to keep ranged units relevant after they upgrade, both in terms of promotions, and in the fact that they don't need to set up to fire