Deciding between Parthenon and Temple of Artemis

[jray]

So you get Polytheism and wonder about the wonders. What should you go for, Parthenon or Temple of Artemis?

Here is a summary of the benefits of each (in Warlords v2.08). The GPP/Turn benefits are explained in the attached graphs.

Parthenon

• Yields more net GPP/turn (than ToA) in the city with Parthenon if and only if you have at least 4/10/16/22 raw GPP/turn there already
  • The "4" is for a non-philosophical leader without National Epic or Pacifism
  • The "10" is for any one of {philosophical, National Epic, Pacifism}
  • The "16" is for any two
  • The "22" is for all three
  • (The attached graphs show the "4" and "10" cases)
• Empire-wide increase in GPP/turn of 50/25/17/12.5%
  • The "50%" is for a non-philosophical leader without National Epic or Pacifism
  • The "25%" is for any one of {philosophical, National Epic, Pacifism}
  • The "17%" is for any two
  • The "12.5%" is for all three
• Slightly higher cost (400 vs. 350 hammers at Normal speed, 14% more)
• Slightly higher culture (+10 vs. +8)
• Emphasized less by AI civs, and thus possible to build later
• City more likely to generate Great Artist (adding 2 raw artist GPP/turn)

Temple of Artemis

• Yields more net GPP/turn (than Parthenon) in the city with ToA if and only if you have less than 4/10/16/22 raw GPP/turn there already
  • The "4" is for a non-philosophical leader without National Epic or Pacifism
  • The "10" is for any one of {philosophical, National Epic, Pacifism}
  • The "16" is for any two
  • The "22" is for all three
  • (The attached graphs show the "4" and "10" cases)
• City gets +100% trade route income, +1 hammer and +1 gold (raw, and subject to multipliers)
• Slightly lower cost (350 vs. 400 hammers at Normal speed, 12.5% less)
• Slightly lower culture (+8 vs. +10)
• Great Merchants conducting trade mission in city with ToA get +100% gold (thus here's a reason you might want someone ELSE to build it!)
• Prioritized by AI civs, and thus hard to build later
• City more likely to generate Great Prophet (adding 3 raw prophet GPP/turn) and Great Merchant (adding 2 raw merchant GPP/turn)

My conclusions:

• Unless your primary goal is to guarantee yourself a specific type of GP a bit faster, Temple of Artemis is usually better because of the benefits to the city (extra raw trade route income/hammers/gold) and the short-term GPP boost in the city.
  • Plus, you might just get away with sneaking in the Parthenon after the ToA!
• If you only want to boost the GPP/Turn in a different city whose GP type you are controlling explicitly (or same city, if it's artists), then Parthenon is better.
  • For example, one city with the Parthenon can help another city with the Great Library get a Great Scientist in 33% less time (assuming no philosophical leader or National Epic or Pacifism)
  • But, the benefit of Parthenon is diminished by the presence of those +100% GPP mulitpliers. The "33%" factor becomes "20%" with one, "15%" with two, and "11%" with all three.
  • Although it's counter-intuitive at first, note that "33% less time" is the same as "50% faster". IMHO, comparing time shortenings is more informative than comparing speed increases.
• Aspiring Cultural Victors might also prefer the Parthenon because of its boost for Great Artists.
• Yet another exception would be a non-philosophical civ with well-established GPP's in multiple cities in a large empire without a noteworthy city deserving of the ToA's benefits.
• If you have more than one of: philosophical leader, National Epic and/or Pacifism
  • Then things are skewed even MORE in favor of ToA, since the +50% GPP from Parthenon amounts to seriously diminished returns. When a substantial GPP multiplier is already in place, it's better to increase the raw base (ToA) than add a small amount to the multiplier (Parthenon).
• Reasons to favor Parthenon:
  • You want to boost the GPP/turn in a different city going for a specific GP type.
  • You are hell-bent on accruing loads of other GPP/turn well before you get Chemistry
  • You plan to generate your Great People from multiple cities
  • You're building it in a weak city (e.g., a non-coastal non-capital or capital without Bureaucracy, without many production/gold/science mulitpliers planned for the short term) that won't benefit much from the extra raw trade route income, hammers, and gold
  • You want Great Artists (best for cultural victories, border culture struggles, and lightbulbing religious/cultural techs)
  • You have existing GPP that you don't want to dilute as much
  • You're willing to gamble that another civ will build the ToA in a large faraway city you can get to, and you plan to send Great Merchants there for the extra gold.
  • You have poor production capability in the city (and thus will take a long time to build it... which is okay since Parthenon is not as cherished by AI civs)
• Reasons to favor Temple of Artemis:
  • Your leader is philosophical
  • You plan to build National Epic in the same city well before Chemistry
  • You plan to run Pacifism well before Chemistry
  • You aren't going to focus on accruing loads of other GPP/turn in the city before you get Chemistry
  • You're building it in a city with good multipliers (e.g., a capital city running Bureaucracy with a Forge/Library and possibly Market/Grocer/Bank planned soon, even better if coastal) to take advantage of the extra raw trade route income, hammers, and gold
  • You're okay with increased likelihood of Great Prophets and Great Merchants
  • You have good production capability in the city (and thus will have a good chance to beat the AI to it) and/or you'll get a head start

Disclaimers:

• As always, things depend on the situation. The best an article like this can do is provide generalizations.

Notes:

• In Warlords v2.00 (original release), the two wonders cost the same (400 hammers at Normal speed).

 

[marioflag]

Jray in your analysis add also that Temple of Arthemis costs a bit less.
On Marathon it should be 1200 hammer Parthenon 1050 ToA.

 

[jray]

Jray in your analysis add also that Temple of Arthemis costs a bit less.
On Marathon it should be 1200 hammer Parthenon 1050 ToA.

Ah, thanks! I forgot that they changed that in v2.08. They used to both be 400 hammers at Normal speed. I have updated the original post.

 

[marioflag]

About your analysis i don't agree on some parts, it is my analisys
Parthenon
- is a multipler of the bonus given by Philosophical trait.
-It is fit with Creative trait because you have a bonus to GA and you have +50% GPP which can be GA
-It absolutely boosts the strenght of your GPP farm

ToA:
- Initial raw commerce is really low, you need some times before the commerce become substantial
-If someone else build ToA you can send a Great Merchant for a *2 gold from merchant mission
-ToA effect is bosted by The Great Lighthouse so if you plan to build ToA, the Great Lighthouse will boost its effects
- ToA better than Parthenon in coastal cities, because you can earn wealthy trade routes easier

My overall opinion is Philosophiccal and Creative leader should favour Parthenon, if you are looking for a cultural victory you should build Parthenon.
If you have a coastal city, if you aren't Phi or Cre it's better ToA.
Financial leaders should prioritize ToA

 

[jray]

Thanks for your feedback, marioflag. I enjoy constructive debate .

About your analysis i don't agree on some parts, it is my analisys
Parthenon
- is a multipler of the bonus given by Philosophical trait.

Unfortunately that is not the case. It's additive, not multiplicative. A philosophical leader only goes from 200% GPP to 250% GPP (i.e., +100% to +150%) by getting the Parthenon. If it was multiplicative, it would go from 200% to 300% (i.e., doubling to tripling), which would be awesome.

-It is fit with Creative trait because you have a bonus to GA and you have +50% GPP which can be GA

I don't really see what the Creative trait has to do with it, unless you are of the opinion that the Creative trait makes the best use of Great Artists. IMHO, the Creative trait is actually one of the weaker traits for cultural victories. I would prefer the Spiritual trait to get fast temples and have an easier time founding religions (since most Spiritual leaders start with Mysticism). In fact, I would argue that Creative doesn't even really need a boost from the Great Artists. It's sorta like how Philosophical leaders benefit less from the +50% GPP than non-Philosophical ones do. But I digress, sorry...

-It absolutely boosts the strenght of your GPP farm

Only if you already have more than 4 GPP (if non-philosophical) or 10 GPP (if philosophical). Otherwise the free priest from the ToA beats the +50% GPP.

ToA:
- Initial raw commerce is really low, you need some times before the commerce become substantial

Good point.

-If someone else build ToA you can send a Great Merchant for a *2 gold from merchant mission

Also a good point. But there are lots of other factors involved too, such as distance and size of city. Might other wonders or buildings have similar effects? And is it additive (+100%, in the presence of other multipliers too) or multiplicative (2 * net result accounting for everything else)? I'd be really interested to see some numerical examples.

-ToA effect is bosted by The Great Lighthouse so if you plan to build ToA, the Great Lighthouse will boost its effects
- ToA better than Parthenon in coastal cities, because you can earn wealthy trade routes easier

Thanks, yet more good points I didn't mention in my original post.

My overall opinion is Philosophiccal and Creative leader should favour Parthenon, if you are looking for a cultural victory you should build Parthenon.
If you have a coastal city, if you aren't Phi or Cre it's better ToA.
Financial leaders should prioritize ToA

I disagree regarding Philosophical because you need to have 10 other raw GPP's before the Parthenon starts winning. Usually I can't achieve that before Chemistry. Even I barely can, that's just the break-even point, and it takes even more GPP for the Parthenon's advantage to really kick in. I'd rather have the +100% trade route, +2 hammers, and +5 gold.

What does the Financial trait have to do with it? Financial doesn't get any boosts to trade routes. They don't even get cheaper banks any more.

But we definitely agree that Parthenon is a boon for aspiring Cultural Victors .

 

[marioflag]

About Creative, reflecting about it you are right Creative doesn't get a huge boost taking the Parthenon.
About Philosophical i have to disagree again while your point that it's effect are additional not a multiplier are right.
If you want to play with a Philosophical leader you clearly would take advantage of its trait using a lot of GP so IMO Parthenon is a must have.
About the GP farm i would add that after the initial turns with Parthenon and Philosophical trait it's not so hard to get 10GPP.

I have thought also some points which you could add in your overal analysis:

Parthenon:
-With National Epic and Philosophical Trait + Parthenon you get a boost of 350% GPP which is absolutely huge
-National Epic+Philosophical Trait +Parthenon+Pacifism =+450% GPP
- On lower level of difficulties were you can build more wonders Parthenon is boosted, on higher levels of difficulty you will build less wonders so Parthenon is not so effective

ToA:
-Its mutually exclusive with Merchantilism, if you build ToA its a really bad choice to choose Merchantilism

 

[agc28]

City gets +100% trade route income, +2 hammers and +5 gold (raw, and subject to multipliers)


you dont get a super prophet.. you only get a prophet..so that would be +1 hammer and +1 gold..

 

[jray]

Parthenon:
-With National Epic and Philosophical Trait + Parthenon you get a boost of 350% GPP which is absolutely huge
-National Epic+Philosophical Trait +Parthenon+Pacifism =+450% GPP

What about the free priest specialist from ToA? Even without Parthenon, it's still 3 more GPP becoming either 3*(300%)=9 or 3*(400%)=12 GPP/Turn being added to the mix!!

Parthenon increases the mulitpliers, but remember that ToA increases the raw base. When more multipliers are in effect already (Philosophical, National Epic, Pacifism), increasing the base is more effective than adding a small additional increment to the multipliers.

ToA:
-Its mutually exclusive with Merchantilism, if you build ToA its a really bad choice to choose Merchantilism

Yep, that's definitely true.

 

[jray]

City gets +100% trade route income, +2 hammers and +5 gold (raw, and subject to multipliers)


you dont get a super prophet.. you only get a prophet..so that would be +1 hammer and +1 gold..

Oops! You're right... thanks. Original post is corrected.

 

[Mutineer]

There other factors to consider.

Toa practically garanty that you GP's will be prophets.
Panteon on other hand, give you flexibility and controll, as it effect all cities.

So, you can run in other city 2 scientist and have 100% chance of getting GS.

 

[marioflag]

Jray i think that percentage increase of GPP given by Parthenon is not the right way to see its overall effect.
What i mean is the incremental effect of Parthenon if you are Philosophical and you build NE, use Pacifism clearly decrease.So for example a city with 10 GPP no national epic and pacifism which builds Parthenon will get an overall increase of +50% of GPP points, on the contrary of a city where you have NE, Pacifism civic and Phi trait Parthenon will give an overall effect of +12,5%
But in the game it is important to stack all the effects, because turns are limited and the best empires are when there are superspecialized cities, like a GPP farm, military production city and so on.

 

[jray]

There other factors to consider.

Toa practically garanty that you GP's will be prophets.
Panteon on other hand, give you flexibility and controll, as it effect all cities.

So, you can run in other city 2 scientist and have 100% chance of getting GS.

Thanks, that's a good point. I've updated the article to reflect this.

 

[jray]

Jray i think that percentage increase of GPP given by Parthenon is not the right way to see its overall effect.
What i mean is the incremental effect of Parthenon if you are Philosophical and you build NE, use Pacifism clearly decrease.So for example a city with 10 GPP no national epic and pacifism which builds Parthenon will get an overall increase of +50% of GPP points, on the contrary of a city where you have NE, Pacifism civic and Phi trait Parthenon will give an overall effect of +12,5%
But in the game it is important to stack all the effects, because turns are limited and the best empires are when there are superspecialized cities, like a GPP farm, military production city and so on.

But you are still stacking with the ToA, just a different type of stacking. You are increasing the raw base GPP/turn, which in the presence of other GPP multpliers (Phi, NE, Pacifism) gives a huge effect!

When you already have good multipliers, increasing the base is better than increasing the multipliers a bit further. The only downside I can see, as Mutineer pointed out, is that you lose some flexibility in your GP type, polluting the pool with Prophet/Merchant.

 

[marioflag]

If i understand well what you said ToA gives a better raw GPP.Yes i agree but it is just a +3, which in long term IMO doesn't compensate the effect of a +50% GPP raw points.


BTW Another thing which could be added in favour of ToA is:
-Carthaginians have as UB Cothon which gives +1 trade route for Coastal city, so it's a no brainer choice for them.

 

[jray]

If i understand well what you said ToA gives a better raw GPP.Yes i agree but it is just a +3, which in long term IMO doesn't compensate the effect of a +50% GPP raw points.

That's true if you avoid Philosophical, National Epic, and Pacifism and have more than 4 GPP/Turn. But each time you add one of those things the threshold goes higher: 10 for one, 16 for two, or 22 for all three. If you can beat the relevant threshold with enough turns to spare before Chemistry that you feel it compensates for the lack of trade route/hammer/gold bonuses from ToA, then yeah, Parthenon wins.

In my games, I rarely exceed the "Parthenon is just as good" threshold by much before Chemistry pulls the plug. I suppose our difference in playing styles and difficulty levels might account for our different preferences too. To each his/her own.

 

[Jet]

Good article.

The Temple of Artemis doesn't give 3 prophet GPP and 2 merchant GPP because there's no such thing. It gives 5 GPP, one prophet GP source and one merchant GP source.

Having read the code I think the trade mission formula on Normal/Standard is

roughly === 500 + 100 * min(pop, distance)

precisely === 500 + 100 * TradeProfit
TradeProfit = min(pop/2, distance/2) * (TradeMultiplier &#37
TradeMultiplier = 100
+ trade route bonuses from buildings (50 Harbor, 100 Temple of Artemis)
+ (pop-10)*5 --- (size 10: zero, size 15: 25, size 20: 50)
+ 25 if connected to capital

 

[acidsatyr]

None as chemistry is around the corner.
but if i could choose

ToA for philosophical
Parthenon for non-philosophical

 

[jray]

Having read the code I think the trade mission formula on Normal/Standard is

roughly === 500 + 100 * min(pop, distance)

precisely === 500 + 100 * TradeProfit
TradeProfit = min(pop/2, distance/2) * (TradeMultiplier %)
TradeMultiplier = 100
+ trade route bonuses from buildings (50 Harbor, 100 Temple of Artemis)
+ (pop-10)*5 --- (size 10: zero, size 15: 25, size 20: 50)
+ 25 if connected to capital

Interesting-- thanks for that info. It definitely makes a trade mission to ToA seem less enticing, given that it's only one of many factors involved. Betting on an AI civ actually putting it in an intelligent place (large coastal city) seems like a longshot.

 

[Jet]

by the way...

With a merchant selected, if you hold down SHIFT and right click on a opponent's city, then hover over the trade mission button, you can see how much that trade mission will net. You can then cancel that order, and try it on another city, etc. So you can figure out which trade mission is best before you start moving.

 

[jray]

by the way...

Cool... but is that an exploit or a feature?