Defender trait

[Goodgimp]

I've never been a fan of the Defender trait, IMO it's easily one of the weakest Traits in the game. Is this intentional, or is it intended to be a minor trait along the likes of Ingenuity? Or am I wrong, and it's actually more effective than it seems?

I wish Defender was more along the lines of Protective in BtS. I'd love free City Garrison or Drill promotions on my archery units to help defend cities especially in the early game. That'd be a lot more useful to me than half a combat promotion and 10% withdrawal in my culture.

 

[Deon]

Actually it looks like a weaker version of Aggressive trait.

Currently Aggressive player is better at Defence than Defender player (withdrawal chance means nothing when you try to protect the city, and you can retaliate with Aggressive with +20% power from cities to stop enemy from pillaging your improvements, while defender waits inside the wall and looks at his economy downfall).

It means that Aggressive trait is almost twice effective than Defender. It means that Defender is a minor trait.

P.S. I think if it would be good to make Defender trait to require attackers to spend additional turn after pillaging (i.e. cannot move(1)), thus attackers would think twice before pillaging (and make AI to consider this).

Just my ideas .

 

[Goodgimp]

Actually it looks like a weaker version of Aggressive trait.

Currently Aggressive player is better at Defence than Defender player (withdrawal chance means nothing when you try to protect the city, and you can retaliate with Aggressive with +20% power from cities to stop enemy from pillaging your improvements).

It means that Aggressive trait is almost twice effective than Defender. It means that Defender is a minor trait.

The thing that makes me wonder if it's intended to be so minor is that typically it's only paired with one other trait (such as Sandalphon's Ind/Def and the Elohim leader in vanilla FFH, I forget his name).

I agree that Aggressive is a far better option for defense than Defender, and that seems a little odd!

 

[Deon]

I've edited my message with 1 turn pause for pillaging idea. What do you think?

 

[Goodgimp]

The pillaging idea is something I hadn't thought of, that's actually a really cool idea. I like it. It's especially nice and fits the flavor because it extends protection through the city radius, rather than just City Garrison upgrades.

 

[Emptiness]

Currently Aggressive player is better at Defence than Defender player (withdrawal chance means nothing when you try to protect the city, and you can retaliate with Aggressive with +20% power from cities to stop enemy from pillaging your improvements, while defender waits inside the wall and looks at his economy downfall).

Play to the strengths of your traits. If you don't, naturally they will seem worthless. Industrious would seem weak if you never built a wonder, and Arcane would be worthless if you never researched the Arcane tech branch. If the retreat chance from Defender is worthless in cities, why do you assume that units of a Defender civ will stay in their cities while foes pillage their tiles? Defenders can build mounted units just like everyone else, and theirs have an extra 10% retreat chance. Plus, the 10% strength bonus applies on attack as well as defense.

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The thing that makes me wonder if it's intended to be so minor is that typically it's only paired with one other trait (such as Sandalphon's Ind/Def and the Elohim leader in vanilla FFH, I forget his name).

Both Elohim leaders have three traits: Defender, Tolerant, and either Creative (Ethne the White) or Philosophical (Einion Logos).

I agree that Aggressive is a far better option for defense than Defender, and that seems a little odd!

Aggressive is more versatile than Defender, because most of Defender's bonus only works while defending your own territory. That's intentional, to encourage civs that should be more reserved to play that way. If your plan is to conquer the world then Defender will naturally seem less useful than Aggressive. If you will be working toward a "peaceful" victory (Cultural, ToM, AotL, perhaps Religious) then Defender works just fine. It's not as good as Aggressive, but it serves that play style well.

 

[Oneluv]

I've edited my message with 1 turn pause for pillaging idea. What do you think?

I love the idea. Making cities more "durable" is something I dream of everytime I see a wolf rider. It seems a shame when something so diff. to build and integral to success gets vaporized so easily. The win/win of pillaging(while I just love to do it!) always seemed a little harsh to me; to easy to just freeze someone in time. Aristo/ag is my (the?) alternative but with a chance to defend my cottages(etc.) I might make a play at the extra money cities/towns provide.
Maybe connect "durable housing" to engineers or the engineering trait. Call it "sturdy" or something. Perhaps earth mana could provide a bonus to the early housing that often drew upon clay,mud, straw etc. for its' construction. With access to engineering or ancient forest or stone, pillaged plots could be re-built and grow faster.
Stone housing might be good, it would develop a little slower but it could add some culture, could act as a fort, would be harder to pillage and be easier to re-build. Stone housing could could recieve bonuses from different Noble houses, (better protection from theft and fire for their merchandise) plus asthetic considerations. Maybe a civ trait could provide some some populations with a "poison pill" allowing some passive def. against pillagers(booby-traps,poison etc.). A trait (defender)or Tech might provide the ability for a % of pop. outside the city ramparts to withdraw to the relative safety of major cities or to "the hills" until the perceived threat had passed. Of course, with the swell in pop. would come neg. bonus' Given enough time these neg. modifiers from the "refugees population " would be quite devastating, like any good siege should be, but it might provide a little variation in game play. Depending on the severity of the seige; the refugee pop. could then be removed to their homes to "re-build" for a plus one upgrade i.e. cottages to hamlets. or the refugees could be blended into the cities that protected them for a pop. increase to offset effect of siege.

Sorry if I de-railed your post Goodgimp. I agree defender is weak. I was thinking about the defender trait and possible ways to make it more interesting. I got a little irie and sidetracked. Thanks for the new spells, I really appreciate your generosity of time and ingenuity.





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