FfH Play-off Contest

xienwolf

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To all the Min-Max'ers and strategists out there:


Imagine that you are signed up for a competitive FfH playing competition, and at the last minute your hands fall off. You are allowed to have a stand-in, but non-players are not allowed in the actual tournament room.

Fortunately, you brought along your little brother who happens to have a photographic memory. So whatever you tell him to do he will do. Unfortunately the rules of the tournament state that all initial settings are determined randomly, and you have never even mentioned the game to your brother before, let alone had him actually play a game. With only 5 minutes till the players are required to report to the tournament room, you have to tell him how to win the tournament.


What do you tell him?

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Though I am not the greatest of strategists, I'll give my rough instructions as an example of what kind of broad-sweeping strategies should be important.


At the start of the game, check if you are playing as the elves, they can keep forests when building improvements, so you'll want to move to a forested river-side hill/plains tile if you can find it. If you aren't the elves, you want a river-side hill/plains tile still, but one with a lot of riverside flatland to put farms on nearby. Oh, and if you happen to be the Elohim, check if a Unique Feature with good tile yields is close and settle over there.


First thing to research is Agriculture if you don't have it. If you can finish a worker AND a warrior in the time it'll take you to research Agriculture, pop the warrior first, then the worker. Otherwise start making a worker immediately since it'll probably finish at the same time as you get Agriculture.

Next you'll want to have 2 warriors in the city (3 if it is Raging Barbarians) and then build 2 more for getting your next city. Once those 2 are finished build a settler and send out the little expedition. If Barbarian World is enabled, ditch the settler idea completely and just build a bunch of warriors.

While this is happening, your scout should be checking out the nearby terrain to find a good spot for the next city, neighbors that should be cut-off or rushed, and chokepoints to be defended. If your scout dies, don't bother building a new one unless you can pop it out in 5-8 turns, you'll get large enough for that eventually.

Also you should research Exploration to connect your second city to the Capital and Ancient Chants so it can produce culture (unless you are Creative). Then focus on getting some Economy built up by getting Cottages or Education.


That should get you going into the game a fair ways. So the next thing to think about will be the promotions you want to aim for with your units and the buildings to focus on in your cities, for that....


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For promotions I'd probably talk about wanting to focus on raw strength upgrades and shock for your roaming units (subdue animals on the scouts if you get animal husbandry), but for your city defenders make sure you get Guerilla I if the city is on a hill (which it should be).

Buildings will emphasize economy and culture initially, unit enabling mid-game, and health/economy lategame.

Tech selection should focus on Economy initial, religion next, and UU/UBs kept in mind the entire time (lots of recon UUs? Go FoL then Esus if you were beat to founding FoL, lots of Melee UUs? go RoK. Disciple UUs, go Order then Empy if beat to founding it, Naval ones go OO and Arcane ones go AV. Once economy is stable and you have a Holy City, aim for unlocking UU/UB or getting nice "First to research" bonuses/Wonders/Universal heroes. Emphasize your Hero unit when thinking about UUs to aim for.


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So time is about done at that point (if you talked REALLY fast, I guess). Lots of details about the start of the game because I feel that is the important bit. Then a very general strategy concept for the late game since a lot of that will be highly dependant on what has already happened (thus the start having been important)
 
I have always been a man of few words, so I would simpily tell him this-

Don't suck.
 
excellent post xienwolf. I wish I had a little brother to tell him to read it :lol:

btw when you say "Then focus on getting some Economy built up by getting Cottages or Education." , I guess you actually mean "Mysticism or Education" ? since cottages are available at education...
 
I love the idea but if he'd never played civ before (or was it Ffh II you were specifying?) my little brother would give me a very blank stare when I mentioned Elohim & mana nodes. (you forgot to mention magic to the poor lad) But he's got a photographic memory so I would try to speak in generalized terms about strategy issues not covered in the civlopedia.

First thing is to use all your extra time (since its a tourney) for the first turns to check the civlopedia entry 'Beyond the Sword concepts' by clicking on the redbook in the top rite corner, followed by 'Fall from Heaven Concepts' and then 'Hints', starting from the bottom of the page. That way he can refer back to that stuff later in his mental picture of those pages.

After that, click on the red fist in the top right menu bar to find settings, then mouseover each one to see what they do. That's how prepared Mr. "I can take mind pictures" can be, & he does the work!

Beyond that, just go really noob with the advice to get him through the first turns. Each tile can make food, hammers & gold but not all of them do & you want as many as possible. Priority should be on food first, then gold, then hammers. Workers build anything that's not in a city. (except mana nodes) You don't want more angry faces than happy ones.

Stress the fact that there are a lot of things to fight &/or come after you, some of them extremely powerful. Your capital needs 3 warriors till you can get something better & so do any other cities. If you're going to attack another civ early do it ASAP with at least 5 guys because bigger borders = bigger defensive bonus. Its always good to err on the side of more military in a tourney, I believe.

Oh, time's up!
 
Get education, spam cottages where you can. Then research Fellowship of the Leaves and hidden paths to let your cities grow to a large size. Build the Guild of the Nine via currency and then lower your research slider a few ticks while you hire an army and research the metal line.

Almost any civ will do pretty well that way.
 
Oops, I meant cottages or Markets. Brain got scrambled :)


And if you didn't get it, the "******ed little bro with a perfect memory" is actually the AI. I am looking to rewrite quite a bit of it, so seeking qualitative overviews.
 
1) The more of a type of resource you have in your empire, the more likely you should research a tech to harvest it. 3 Wines in an opening cross are worth crafting for literally any civ.

2) A good economy leads to good military faster than just beelining important military techs does, and for longer. In that vein, two great early sources of acceleration are the God King civic, and Cottages from education.

3) If you do not plan to use Guardian of Nature, then your two most important economic techs are Mathematics and Sanitation. The former gives gambling houses which can be a large bit of happiness. The later gives public baths for the same, as well as a large potential food increase.

4) Know your strengths. Generally research toward techs that unlock your hero's or world spells.

5) Do not adopt pacifism on the first turn, just for 'kicks'.

6) Adopt a religion as fast as possible.
 
Nice pointers, but mostly a bit too specific. I'm looking for generalized ideals as often as possible. Things like "If you don't have enough room for 4 cities on a large map, prepare for war" or "If you are not afraid of being attacked soon, tech toward economy as often as possible"

All of us humans know that Combat is the best promotion to get to start out, but precisely why? What would we have to tweak in the XML to make something else a worthy choice instead? (ie - is 20% strength worth more than 2 more movement? Would 20% strength always be worth more than 30% strength in certain terrains? In the case of a city defender who will NEVER leave that terrain, it isn't ever worth more...)
 
Oh. Well I'm not a modder, just play 'em. Here's my two cents.

I've never seen the AI actually use its super settler in the beginning to settle somewhere else. When I check top 5 cities they're all still founded on the 1st turn.

As far as promotions go, do you know if an AI will ever save one in order to heal later and/or promote according to the situation? If not, that would be a great way to increase their efficiency with units.

Plus there's the fans of Acheron thing where the AI gets stuck outside his city.

If you like my suggestions I could try to brainstorm some more.
 
The fact most people are clueless about programming is why I tried to avoid mentioning it is meant to be advice for the AI :)


AI will always settle right where it is set up at because the game is programmed to make that the best possible spot for a city. In FfH that is not often quite the case though. And they will never purposefully save a promotion for when they need to heal, but there are some times when none of the promotions are worthwhile, so the AI will wander around unpromoted for a fair while. Not sure if there is any weight for promoting just to heal yourself, but I doubt it. So in those cases where no promotions are worthwhile, it'll just promote at a later turn when there IS a worthwhile promotion (generally when the unit's AI is re-assigned (rare) or when a new tech unlocks more promotions).


Yeah, teaching the AI about Fear would be a good move, but a semi-tricky one.
 
I know very little about coding but if I was going to explain promotions briefly I'd explain the different types of units I make and the order I make them in.

1. General - Load up on the combat promotions, fights well everywhere, enough said. (1/2 of army)

2. Hate Units - What are your neighbors amassing? Choose some units to promote as counters to that. (1/4 of army)

3 or 4. City Raider - All city raider promotions. Make this #3 if you are primarily on offense. (1/4 of army)

3 or 4. City Defender - City Defender/Guerilla. Make this #3 if you are primarily on defense. (2 or 3 per city)

That's the breakdown I use during the early game, I usually just build hordes of axemen and split them up like this. I haven't played 0.40 enough to get the hang of defensive strikes and that will probably make a big difference and might invalidate my "all axemen, all the time" approach.
 
Combat is great because it is so easy. You don't have to shuffle units to cafefully select which one is attacking based on the terrain or enemy unit class. That's why the ai always takes it, i expect. Also, it is reliable, in that if you don't know what you face you still know +20% will be great.
Movement is great, but a stack can only move as fast as the slowest unit therein, so mobility it's often less useful than it would seem.

In otherwords, choosing the right promotions are only as relevant as the care you give to tactics later. Otherwise just take combat.
 
- At the start of the game, focus on warriors instead of scouts, and build as many as possible until you hit the upkeep boundary (where they start costing $) or until you have other buildings to build IE markets etc. Explore with warriors.

- Preserve highly promoted units. Only attack with very high lvl units when they are sure of winning and have support so they don't get counter-attacked, or have a chance at destroying a very powerful unit (like a hero)

- If your economy is up and running and you still have no religion, tech towards a religion. Prioritise religions that are not founded yet, and let you keep your current allies which you have open borders with. Spread this religion to them.

- Decide on a victory condition early. Focus on achieving that victory condition. Only switch focus if another victory condition would be easier to achieve in your current state.

- Do not ever engage in partial war. However, be willing to offer peace even when ahead so that you do not over-extend yourself. Gaining one or two cities is victory enough, as you will now likely have a tech and production lead for future wars. Never declare war on close allies no matter how weak they are, instead use them as upkeep-free cannon-fodder and cities which you can drag into wars.
 
I would emhasize the effect of starting location on economic teching, as Zechnophobe suggested. If the AI can handle it, it should initially check what kinds of economy it has access to:

- What Xienwolf wrote applies to the terrain types he discusses.

- If there are only few open (no forest / jungle / hill) squares nearby (useable by it´s first 2 cities), but sufficient forest for some production, the AI should prioritize mysticism.

--- AND if the AI can handle it:

- If there are considerable calendar-utilizable (2 or more incense or dye, 3 or more of the others) economic resourcers nearby, the AI should tech calendar and switch to agriculture for a faster settler.

- If there are considerable mining-utilizable (2 or more gems or gold) resources nearby, it should tech mining.

This is probably too specific, but I really think the single most important improvement the AI needs is to get it's early economy running. Terrain affects early tech choices profoundly: without sufficient open areas education is useless, but simply teching to calendar (or, lacking the econ resources, mysticism) can get you on your feet in a breeze. Thus, if possible, I think it would be a good idea to put a good deal of effort there.
 
What about incorporating this feature from Snarko's options mod?

AI will demand / ask for help from other AI's, not just human players.
 
That's why I wanted to avoid revealing this is for the AI ;) I've already got a fix in place for the terrain/improvements aspect of AI weakness, so just need it to understand basic things like where to settle at what stage of the game.
 
Ignore the power ratings/graph. It is a dirty liar. Instead, scout potential enemies and watch for highly promoted units. 9 times out of 10, a war is won or lost by one unit, and protecting (offense) or killing (defense) that unit should be the priority.

Finish wars quickly so your economy doesn't meltdown (unless you are Bannor, then crusade your continent and hope for the best). If you are in a war that is approaching stalemate, sue for peace (or accept a reasonable peace offer if it is presented).

Don't just adopt a religion that spreads to one city. Try to found another one, or barring that, try to get one that will help you strategically.

Never take the health option on the monument event. The husband did it. If you're running God King, the people love you no matter who you appoint governor. Lizardmen.

A cottage economy is better than a specialist economy, except when its not.

Maelstrom FTW ... OMG Nerf!
 
Don't just adopt a religion that spreads to one city. Try to found another one, or barring that, try to get one that will help you strategically.

With the exception of FoL of course :lol:
I was more than happy to switch over to FoL while playing as the Clan when the Ljo's spread it over to me (was focusing on getting bronze working early), and having (free) ancient forests pop up everywhere, without the need to have actually done hunting > FoL, techs which aren't terribly useful to the Clan that early on.
 
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