Freedom vs. Autocracy vs. Order

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While I like Freedom the most, I think you are wrong on Order.

You now get +1 happiness per city for taking it which can be a huge boost at that stage of the game.

You get +25% science from Factories. How can you overlook this? I mean, if you REXed and went for Rationalism, dipping into Order is all that's left to seal the deal. The finished, if you can get it, is also pretty significant for REX/puppet empires.

It's weird but I feel like Order has become Liberty 2.0. It's the second "wide" empire policy tree.
Now you have 3 paths:
Tall empires= Tradition-> Freedom with Piety/Patronage/Commerce as likely filler
Wide empires= Liberty-> Order with Rationalism as the best filler
War mongers= Honor-> Autocracy with ??? as filler (Tradition actually for the free garrisoned units and faster border expansion)
 
Constitution isn't very good (not to mention poorly named) and requires a buff, but free speech is certainly not sucky. When you get it, you will save between 25-30 gpt, and it goes up to 50+ gpt as the game goes on. Compare that to the later savings of socialism, and it probably comes out favorably. The middle one is situational; not quite as good as nationalism or populism, but it has its uses, especially with oligarchy or professional army (happy walls).

You're probably right about free speech, it's not a game breaker but I did kinda forget it comes a good deal earlier than the other money saving policies. But overall, the tree still doesn't seem too overpowered to me.

As a side note, has anyone tried using commerce lately? I had an isolated start on my own continent and it was incredibly powerful. With the nerf to communism, +3 per coastal city is one of the best bonuses available. I went left side first because all my cities were coastal, then used that production to help build up the necessary infrastructure for a specialist economy, while filling out the right side. By the time I hit the finisher it added about 120 gold per turn...a lot more than i expected due to multipliers.
 
Before latest patch I was fond of freedom, 100% bonus to culture output just for having a wonder in the city is a lot - in fact it was the key to culture win. And - even if you do not aim for cultural win - you still would take opener and Civil Society to get some extra happiness and food out of your scientists/engineers. Now, that opener was swapped on +25% GP points, you wouldn't get happiness boost - therefore making it less useful for non-cultural empires, and rework of Constitution into +2 culture per wonder makes one useful only if you have lots of wonders - not only crucial for culture win, which was Henge, Cristo Redentor and Sistine pre-patch.
So, right now I consider Freedom very inferior to both Order and Auto.


Now I really fond of Order, expecially in combination with liberty, honor and piety/rationalism. You can get awfull lot of happiness that way.
 

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So, right now I consider Freedom very inferior to both Order and Auto.

That's not really fair either. If you're running a small, tall empire with no intent on world domination, Freedom is a much better choice than both Order and Autocracy. That's the thing - they're situational.

Chazzycat said:
As a side note, has anyone tried using commerce lately?

Commerce is the weakest policy tree in the game and, at best, highly situational (naval maps).
-The opener is only attractive if the capital is very large and has a lot of gold resources.
-The 20% trade route bonus from Trade Unions is a very insignificant bonus that doesn't really compete at all with the gold-generating abilities of its counterparts. The main problem with it is the fact it reduces maintenance by 20% - they should have made it instead increase trade income by 20%, which is more - and even then, 20% is probably too little. This would also help the problem that Commerce players are often naval-based and will frequently be using Harbors as trade links rather than roads. So, if a player has lots of tiny islands connected by Harbors, Trade Unions is of no benefit at all.
-Mercantilism's 25% gold reduction cost on rushbuys is decent, especially since Big Ben was nerfed (though the synergy between these two was what made it really powerful in the first place), but really, using gold to build is inadvisable - hammers work better. This is especially true since trade posts are much weaker now prior to Economy.
-Protectionism's +1 from luxury resources is very insignificant for being placed at the bottom of the tree as a Commerce 'ultimate' - the happy bonus to be picked up from this one pales in comparison with the happy bonuses from any other tree.
-Naval tradition is actually extremely good and probably one of the most underrated policies in the entire game. Once again, against the AI you may not really need it but in a close match having one extra move and sight at sea is an enormous advantage that virtually guarantees you'll win any battle at sea - especially if you're playing as England, whose ships already sail faster.
-Merchant Navy is decent, a mid-game Communism equivalent very welcome in naval empires with low production (especially with the now-useless Seaport).
-The finisher is actually really good, but the finishers of the other trees are better.

All in all, I think Commerce isn't too bad but the problem is the alternatives are just so much better. They need to improve Trade Unions and Protectionism for Commerce to become worthwhile.
 
-Protectionism's +1 from luxury resources is very insignificant for being placed at the bottom of the tree as a Commerce 'ultimate' - the happy bonus to be picked up from this one pales in comparison with the happy bonuses from any other tree.

They need to improve Trade Unions and Protectionism for Commerce to become worthwhile.

I disagree about Protectionism. I believe there are 15 luxuries in the game, so that potentially gives you 15 happy, which is very strong.

I do agree about Trade Unions, it should also reduce maintenance of harbors by 2 (and they should add more improvements with maintenance, such as telegraph lines or power lines).

If you are running a specialist economy and finish commerce, you can get lots and lots of gold. Commerce is slightly under-rated IMO.
 
Not sure of how others play, but in terms of happiness... Freedom is the greatest, and I rarely have a smaller tall empire. I had a super-power of a civ, with many large cities. I think my happiness jumped by 50 when taking Democracy. That is huge! Civil society then makes your cities grow faster, and lets not forget all the extra GP's you get, and the GP bonus as the finisher... really leaves the other two to far behind.
 
I gained 250gpt from the commerce finisher, its very good.. X_x
 
Commerce needs to be sexed up.

And I don't just mean make it stronger, make it funner.

Quite a few mods do nice things to it, and the Finisher is VERY strong. It's still probably the least popular branch, but it shouldn't take much effort to get it a bit closer.

IMO, it has three problems:

1> It's just far too specialized, sort of like what Honor used to be before they gave it all those Happiness boosts. Not specialized in the sense that everything's about gold, but specialized in that it only helps with coastal cities and naval units.

2> The numbers just aren't very good. Merchant Navy is +3 production per coastal city; Communism used to be +5 production for ANY city, and was changed to +2 production and then boosts building production by a percentage.

3> Post-patch, gold just seems to be significantly easier to get. At that point, adding even MORE gold sort of loses some of its appeal.

But this is the sort of thing you can clean up in mods pretty easily.
 
When playing my games, I usually go for Order or Freedom, because it makes my empire that much stronger, because I usually always go for a Science or a Culture Victory. I hardly ever go for a Domination win, mainly because I always play on the biggest map, and it would be horribly difficult to win through that way. Diplomatic victories are just aggravating because you're always trying to beat out the other Civs on influence, and I usually prefer to spend my money on the cities. So, yeah, Autocracy is never used in my game. Patronage is the second least used one, then Honor. Although all the others I use quite a lot, depending.
 
In response to OP: The idea behind the three policies is they are follow-ups to the initial counterparts - Freedom is a good follow-up to Tradition (Tall empire), Order is a good follow-up to Liberty (Wide empire), Autocracy is a good follow-up to Honor (Warmonger empire). This is overly simplified, of course, it is quite possible you might switch styles during the game but it is the general idea. Thus, Freedom, Autocracy and Order all reflect completely different empires.

Now, as to whether Freedom is too strong and the counterparts too weak: No. For several reasons.

First of all, Freedom, being focused on specialists and great people, benefits small empires far more than large ones. If you are running a truly vast empire, it makes little sense to adopt Freedom. Wide empires typically have less developed cities with less population and less infrastructure (and associated specialist slots), not to mention fewer wonders, all of which are factors which mean less specialists. A small, tall empire is much more likely to be generating a large number of great people points - in cities with wonders and good multipliers for those, such as the Garden and the National Epic. It is far more useful to be generating great people in a such super-city than trying to do so across a large number of underdeveloped cities. That is one of the main reasons why Order is a better choice for a wide empire.

Beyond that, Order makes sense for several more reasons. Nationalism and United Front are some of the 'crap you have to go through', I suppose. They are crap, in a sense, but at the same time they really aren't. The reason why I say this is it's true you may not need them against the AI. But is that a problem with the policies? No. That's a problem with the terrible AI which you can beat with hands tied behind your back. Both policies are in fact incredibly useful for defending your empire - it's just the fact you're playing against the underpowered AI that makes you think otherwise. In that regard, you might call the Freedom policy Universal Suffrage 'crap' as well, because you'll be able to defend your cities just fine without the extra strength. In multiplayer, though, or against a possible future working AI, these policies are invaluable.

The case is the same for Autocracy. In my opinion, Autocracy is not weak, no, it is in fact one of the most powerful trees in the game. The Autocracy opener alone is the single biggest economy boost in the game. The unit cost reduction beats anything else hands down, including Freedom's Free Speech.

Beyond that, the rest of Autocracy is pure awesome. Populism gives you a semi-Bushido unique ability for your whole army which will make the difference between victory and defeat in close battles (read: Non-AI battles). Militarism is, once again, one of the biggest gold-boosters in the game. Fascism enables you to have a much larger army than anyone else (which you'll need!). The new Police State policy is likewise one of the best happiness boosters in the game. Total War received an insane boost, enabling you to have not only a much bigger army, but a much *better* army as well. As such, it would be idiotic to try for a domination victory using Freedom. Order could possibly work, and Autocracy would be ideal. Order is more geared towards a somewhat peaceful approach, however, which is why its military policies are defensive in nature. Probably better suited for a science win.

Now, once again, despite how absolutely awesome Autocracy is, it runs into the same problems as Order: You don't need a large army against the AI. You don't need lots of upgrades and special abilities for your army. You'll beat it easy anyway with just a fraction of the number of units the AI has. In that sense you are right, Autocracy 'stinks'. But you're delluding yourself if you think that's the truth. Reality is the AI stinks, not the non-Freedom policies.

Good stuff. I totally agree
 
I disagree about Protectionism. I believe there are 15 luxuries in the game, so that potentially gives you 15 happy, which is very strong.

I do agree about Trade Unions, it should also reduce maintenance of harbors by 2 (and they should add more improvements with maintenance, such as telegraph lines or power lines).

If you are running a specialist economy and finish commerce, you can get lots and lots of gold. Commerce is slightly under-rated IMO.

Yep pretty much this. I think everyone can agree trade unions is pretty awful. But overall the tree is not so terrible in the right situation, especially now that patronage is less attractive (the other option in medieval).
 
Of the 3 trees (Order, Autocracy, Freedom), Order seems to be the only tree that allows you to run a large puppet empire post-patch without happiness issues when mixed with Piety and Honor (right side), since puppets tend to build culture buildings and walls/castles. The first policy in order is quite a large bump in happiness for a wide empire of any type. So pigeonholing Order into a Science victory isn't exactly correct as it could be used for Domination with a puppet empire.
 
Yeah. Even if you are warmongering, Order's still a very good pick. Along with Liberty (Meritocracy), you can wipe out 2/3 of the unhappiness caused by number of cities. If you also take Honor, then garrison removes the remaining 1/3 of unhappiness.

This means a player can go ICS however he wants as long as he controls the pop upper limit (i.e. the sum of all building happiness).

On the other hand, I'd say two of the Order policies are pretty bad: United Front and Nationalism

United Front and Nationalism are Autocracy Policies...
 
Freedom is my traditional go-to for a regular, Ancient Age start. But I had a game once where I had 3 militaristic CS near me, and that was a total Autocracy game. I was getting a free land unit every turn.

I am in love with Order+Commerce+Big Ben, but Autocracy+Commerce+Big Ben works, too. Getting that one coastal city with Brandenburg+Heroic Epic and quick-turning navy, air, and sacrificial landschekts decides the game.
 
United Front and Nationalism are Autocracy Policies...

This is why necroing old threads is a bad idea -- it leads to misinformation. This thread was discussing the vanilla game, where United Front and Nationalism were, indeed, Order policies. In BNW, they became Autocracy tenets.

Moderator Action: To avoid further misinformation, thread closed.
 
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