[G&K] Help Wanted: Honor Opening Suggestions

[Donaskme]

I've found Tabarnak's "Tradition's 4 City Opening" very illuminating. Trying to wrangle the Honor policies into that opening has not panned out for me. Tradition/Rationalism is now muscle-memory for me, and I'd love to hear ideas on how to shake it up by trying a new approach.

Let's suppose a devout but warlike state that rejects Rationality and Tradition in preference to Piety and Honor. Just generally, any ideas for making Honor a solid opener would work, combining it with Piety even better.

Could you Honor fans describe how that unfolds in an ideal game? Thanks!

 

[curwen]

this is much more dependent of the difficulty and civ because you want to have at l"ast 4 honor policies when you start your rush (at least the plus in happiness for garnison ). If anyone know of a valid domination rush at deity please tell me i was never able to do a world conquest at deity (only science diplo and cultural win so far depending of civ and map). IMO at deity level you must take any advantage you get so the key is to adapt a lot (war when you win, give cities back when you must ... try culture/science win .. and fall back on diplo according to the civ you discover at the head... whatever ...) specialy since new patch.

For example with monghol (easiest warlike civ) below deity (emperor for example) . i will start war with kehorsehocky (and be peaceful if possible until i get them ... but never sign peace if somewhat declare war (increase the time before i get a warmonger rep). Can be used also fora xbow rush. Obviously earlier or later planned rush will change order a lot
so:

policy (2 version a or b):
honor opener (i must have it so at least get some culture from it) farm barbarian as you want 30xp with as many units as possible before your rush. That will give you CS faction and culture also so farm and kill them as you are warned where they pop and switch units a lot when they have their 30xp (i send them to garnison or near the border where the fight will be when i start rush or where the other civ attack).

a) liberty opener +1 culture/city - citizenship (you want fast road when you begin your killing spree for fast troop movement)
( representation - meritocraty when you start you killing spree)
For this variant you want meritocraty when you start your killing spree (+1 happiness/city)... could be faster to get representation 1st if you plan to annexes some cities on the way (normaly useless with monghol due to the speed of your conquest... but could be a must have with slower civ or special map with blocking point if you want to get any policy at all... to get it or not depends a lot of the map imo)

b) tradition opener (+3 culture and border growth ... help a lot ) - legalism (free culture help )
this version is to get oligarchy when you are war mongering (free garnison is nice when you conquer the world) DO NOT GET ANY OTHER TRADITION ... you do not want to play tall and you do not build wonder you conquers them ... the advantage is you can get culture fast for the 60 1st turn... pb is do you prefer early good border and early culture and middle gold (no garnison maintenance) over middle happiness (in short depends a lot how many cities you plan to raze or keep )
strangely with wonder building neighbour (egypt byzance) i would recommand tradtion over liberty else the initial border war will be a pain (specialy if one got great wall)

now time to finish honor
discipline (+10% strength)
military caste
-> should be near to start conquest at least for monghol...
professional army (exception is monghol to be taken when you need happiness or to upgrade to kehorsehocky... every other mlilitary civ need it asap ... more than +50 exp as you upgrade a lot and for the HUGE happiness as conquered cities builds those walls) )
warrior code (1st GG can be taken before prof army because of that to start the rush depending of your treasure state ... else 1 more GG is always good when you go to war)
military tradition (will happen late .... i generaly get it with artillery) -> honor finisher (will not pay the cost of your army but will help)
The problem with honor is the only use is if you plan a domination victory (or whatever victory you want once you have nearly conquered the world) and then to get culture can be a pain once you have to many cities (even if you raze or puppet some cities are to good to throw away and you generaly need a city to build unit not to far from the front).

Build order: same as 4 cities tradition opener ... (ya i defend with archer even if i will start war with kehorsehocky) those units will be garnison duties. and build your army...
For monghol i just get 2 cavalry and as many kehorsehocky (or chariot archer i will upgrade) as i can.

science order...
there also depends a lot of when you will start your rush ( a bomber rush is obviously much later.... and you can start with 4 cities opener for example...).
For monghol i do the same as tradition 4 cities open,er then rush for chivalry...

 

[Donaskme]

Ah I see, thank you very much for such a detailed explanation, complete with interesting options. Let's assume a difficulty of King/Emperor, and the Civ can be whatever people think is most fitting with strategies to match. Inca civilization ideas most welcome.

I believe I'll try your ideas immediately, and make a journal of my (sure to be laughably horrible since I blow) campaign, so that everyone can have a great laugh! Might as well jump in the deep end

 

[Petiscator]

This seems interesting. I might try it out with Germany, it's been a long time since I played as them and I feel like doing a Landsknecht rush. Only problem for me it I wish to win by culture before, as my last four games were Science - Domination - Domination - Science. But I'll sure check it out, as I'm kind of tired of using Tradition in 9/10 games

 

[RedRover57]

It would be interesting if you would set up a challenge and post a starting save game. The rules would be that you must take Honor and Piety (policy order up to your own discretion), no Tradition, Liberty or Rationalism (obviously) allowed. Emperor or Immortal difficulty (Deity would put off too many people)? Persia and Celts would both be good choices for civs. These types of challenges are always enlightening.

 

[angkor t. wat]

On Prince I'll often start tall, then brawl.

I take the tradition opener 1st, then honor opener 2nd and use barb hunting to help fill out the tradition section fast.

Alternately if I want to abuse legalism I'll choose an honor policy for my third and maybe forth policies. The way I'm playing I don't find the wonder building one or the garrison one useful until a little later. On harder difficulties I can see the +city combat strength being more useful.

 

[RedRover57]

I also prefer the Tradition opener first, then Honor, but it would be interesting to see if you can skip Tradition, Liberty and Rationalism completely on a higher difficulty and still pull off a domination victory.

 

[apocalypse105]

The best way to go for honor is :

Built order :

Scout (warrior on continents)
Momument
archer
worker
archer
settler

Second city:
momument
archers

Tech tree:
Go straight to archery pick up luxuries and sell them for straigh gold so you can buy units.
after the luxuries techs go to construction and buy and upgrade to compusite bows.


Policies:
open the honor policy (to get culture from barbarians)
open liberty then get free worker
get free greet general kill you're neighbour

Make sure you kill barbs for culture early on.

You could olso steal a worker from a city state

 

[Donaskme]

It would be interesting if you would set up a challenge and post a starting save game. The rules would be that you must take Honor and Piety (policy order up to your own discretion), no Tradition, Liberty or Rationalism (obviously) allowed. Emperor or Immortal difficulty (Deity would put off too many people)? Persia and Celts would both be good choices for civs. These types of challenges are always enlightening.

Great idea! Okay, I'll put that together by Friday.

 

[ense7en]

I like opening Tradition then going Honor. I usually will come back to Tradition to grab free culture building of some kinds, and possibly Oligarchy, usually after finishing Honor.

Then going into Autocracy once Industrial comes around.

 

[Crafty Bison]

If going for an early rush I'd really really want to be backing myself up with an early UU to focus on, or a very good warring UA. These are the easiest ways to do the early rush.

It's also very dependant on your neighbours, most notably in proximity, you want them close and on the flat. Also ask why you want to rush them, is it to take their stuff or create more room for you to grow. If it's the former, they need to be a good starter civ (with a weak military) to make it worth it.

Obviously neighbours are something you have limited control over before the start of the game, so scouting is important, and you need to have a backup plan if you're all alone. This is why most of the posts advocate putting the first policy elsewhere unless you're absolutely sure you've got a good early target to hit (tradition seems the more natural fit as oligarchy is useful later and legalism can delay the decision further if required).

As for the honour policies, the opener can and should be abused horribly (raging babas can help if you like to stack the game). Then take the GG on the left, especially if going melee. After that take discipline on a melee rush and the experience on an archer rush (more insta heals). Then finish up if you like, or start a new tree.

Science - beeline to your UU, or, if you don't have one, composite bows are the best standard units atm. build archers and upgrade. Don't go crazy on the beeline though, as you'll still have a game to play after .

I think MadDjinn did a couple of examples showing how to do early rushes and what to expect out of them. If i recall there was a Persian immortal rush, and a settler rush with the Huns.

Edit: On how to include piety - dunno, seems difficult to me. I can think of the Celts, who could spear rush and also take the top off of piety for beastly faith, but that's about it. Possibly Aztecs for a jag aided culture game (would want tradition too tho, would want only the honour opener)? Certainly don't think it would apply to all civs.