General Strategies to survive

[Tholal]

I like to build elder councils and markets in every city asap

Seconded. These two buildings give a flat bonus to research and gold income that is invaluable in the early game.

I also wouldn't be so focused on the isolationist policy. I generally only deny Open Borders to the AI if I'm worried about them coming through my lands to settle in open areas and/or exploring dungeons that I haven't yet opened. Otherwise, there is little detriment to having Open Borders agreements with AI players.

In your game where 9 civs ganged up on you, I would bet that half of them are vassals of whoever is the score leader. If you can damage them or their master enough to cause them to break away, then it's often easy to get an immediate peace treaty.

And remember that each civ has a different playstyle. What works for one, often doesn't work for another. I recommend picking one or two civs that interest you most and focus on those, learning what strategies work best for them while gaining more intimate knowledge of the game mechanics (I've been playing FfH for a year now and I still run across little tricks or tidbits that I didn't know before).

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

does the AI ever explore dungeons anyway? I know it does in FF, but in base FFH I think it does not.

 

[Tholal]

does the AI ever explore dungeons anyway? I know it does in FF, but in base FFH I think it does not.

They do in my games, but I think that's because I'm using Skyre's AI mod. And when they decide to explore the Sepulcher that lies within your borders and unleash named barbarians on your lands, well then you have a good reason to curse that Open Borders agreement!

 

[Emptiness]

To take an example - don't build Granaries or Smokehouses until you're far past the unhealthiness limit. And even then, only build the one for which you have the most matching resources!

Pursuing this strategy will have devastating consequences if Blight hits.

does the AI ever explore dungeons anyway? I know it does in FF, but in base FFH I think it does not.

It does even in base FFH, but it ignores more than it explores. Every once in a while one of my games will be ruined by an AI popping a wraith out of a dungeon very early.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

ah, nice improvement there. maybe that's what destroyed the poor sidar at turn 50 or so quickspeed in my current game, although that might have been good ol' Orthus as well. damn savage

 

[Tholal]

To take an example - don't build Granaries or Smokehouses until you're far past the unhealthiness limit. And even then, only build the one for which you have the most matching resources!

Pursuing this strategy will have devastating consequences if Blight hits.

And don't forget that Granaries and Smokehouses actually have two benefits, the health bonus from appropriate resources, and the bonus food kept after population growth (which can make a big difference in certain situations).

I used to always build these buildings in all my cities if I had the appropriate resources, but I've since learned that while nice, they aren't always an important priority, and unless you have more production than you know what to do with, you should carefully pick and choose which cities get these upgrades.

 

[popejubal]

Seconded. These two buildings give a flat bonus to research and gold income that is invaluable in the early game.

The enormous boost that a Great Scientist (or even Great Merchant) gives in the early to mid game is a great reason to build one or both of these in an appropriate city in the early game, but a Market's net 2 costs 60 at normal speed. At a conversion rate of 3=1, that's 90 turns before you break even.

I'd rather build more units unless I'm in a serious financial crisis. And if I'm in a serious financial crisis, I'll probably want to build workers instead of buildings because I expect to get a faster return from a worker improving tiles than from a Marketplace's 2 per turn.

Obviously, if you're building them for the specialist slot, then that doesn't apply.

 

[Diamondeye]

Build what's necessary. That means you should concentrate on units.
Settlers will allow you to claim more land. (Lots of!) Workers will allow you to improve that land. Military will allow you to keep your lands/take the lands of enemies. Buildings, apart from perhaps some Mage Guilds/Training Yards/Stables are largely useless for the first third of the game, in most games.

If you need health in a city, why not go conquer someone and take their resources? Or halt growth by pushing out more settlers/workers? Same goes for happiness, although that's also improvable by civics/religion.

Also, you need a tactic. Something to aim for. If you're Hippus and the Kuriotates live nearby, in large, luxurious, scarcely protected cities, do kill them, take their cities, plunder their lands and so on. If you're Amurites and your neighbour is Clan or Doviello, peaceful building is not the way. War WILL come. Be prepared.

 

[loffenx]

I am a bit confused here, what difficulty level are we talking about? Survival is always priority number one ofcourse, but beeing so hesistant against building even markets would atleast put me in a position were I would have a hard time financing any proper defenses, since all thoose warriors and workers that would pop out cost money.

Another important point other than when the market-investment breaks even is the fact that a market finances the upkeep of more troops, IMO.

I mean, in general, take a minute to think the investment you are about to make through. A market, costs 60 , while a warrior costs 25. However the net +2 would finance another two warriors (~), or contribute to another city. The merchant specialist is ofcourse also an asset, given food is avalible.

So, do you need 2 more warriors short term or improve the foundations of a larger empire/army long term? It is all matter of risk in the end, I guess.

Another problem is how to specialize cities. Reading through topics most people say: Don't build everything in one city: specialize them. How? I need some buildings just to survive (such as an infirmary) which needs hammers, which needs people. So I tend to spam farms and mines and almost always forget to build cottages which is why I heavily rely on Aristocracy. Then again: If there are no rivers nearby or mines I can't either build farms (which results in no people) or no mines (no hammers) so production is very slow. Red smileys and the need to work on tiles keep me away from just using specialists. Any specialist keeps me away from working on farms thus preventing me to get new people which could possibly be specialists (it's a vicious circle ).

Well if you cannot build farms, build cottages? Perhaps you are playing on too large maps? While learning the game it might be harder to have a vast empire, or atleast you should focus on a couple of cities and really plan them through.

And tiles and specialists are not separate unvierse. All citicens require food, but once you can feed the population you can keep happy there is nothing preventing you from assigning a specialist, if you need the particular gains they give.

Catch-all strategies might be helpful along the way, but myself I prefer to try and learn more instead and sort of make my own diagnostics over my often failing empires. That way, you learn something every day

And why keep all borders closed? Not every AI is an enemy, nurturing a few friends can be very rewarding; as buffer-zones (think warzaw-pact), as trade partners (resources, techs and trade routes (very important)), as religious friends fueling your possible religious wonder, and so on. The main drawback of open borders is that they can have a negative impact on other diplomatic relationship. I wouldn't trust the incompetent AI to craft any smart plans with the information open borders might provide them.

 

[Tholal]

but a Market's net 2 costs 60 at normal speed. At a conversion rate of 3=1, that's 90 turns before you break even.

Your logic here doesn't make sense to me. How does 3 gold = 1 hammer? Hammers don't translate directly into gold nor does gold translate directly into hammers, at least not in the early game.

Extra gold income allows me to maintain my research rate at a high percentage, support more military and support more cities. And 60 hammers is a pretty cheap price to pay, unless of course, your city only has two hammers total, in which case a market might not be the best option.

If you're leaving the Festival research until you've already researched all the rest of the bottom of the tech tree, then yes, the market may not be so valuable at that point. But, if you research Festivals relatively early (you don't even need to beeline it), then those markets pay for themselves many times over.

 

[Worm4life]

Sadly, I've come to discover that very few buildings are worth building. Monuments in new cities, forges in production specialized cities, unit production buildings (guild, training yard, etc), and then MAYBE public baths.

All other production is better off cranking out units. When you have enough units that it starts strangling your economy, it's time to attack something. Building anything else but units comes during the window between hitting the attack point and the time it takes you to lose those units.

Personally I don't even think TECHING is worth it past a certain point. You shoot for a few key early techs, then stop sometime around champions. Every tech past that gives you sharply diminishing returns. You're better off at that point just amassing gold (at which point gambling houses become worth it for the massive +10 )

(Friend of mine is fiddling with a mod that makes more civics/buildings/late game techs more worth it)

 

[Senethro]

In addition to W4L's style, I use Markets if running Consumption, Temples if running religion and a few judiciously placed Libraries and Money Changers. Once or twice I've built Herbalists in frontline cities. That pretty much covers it. Most FFH buildings could do with a 25-40% cut in hammer costs.

 

[JonathanStrange]

It seems to me that in the early game, very often the single biggest factor in survival is simple geography: if I start at the center of a X-shaped pangaea world, then I'm in for interesting times whatever I choose to research first. It's not the only factor but I know I can breathe a lot easier if I can, like Bootsiuv pointed out, find a chokepoint, then decision-making becomes easier. Most of my Deity level games sound like the OPs scenario of being invaded by hordes of enemies and my maps rarely have a chokepoint except around my neck.

The early game choices of city sites, units built, techs researched, civics adopted are important but very situational depending on geography, our nation, enemy civs and resources. If I've an aggressive neighbor, I prioritize research leading to our national strength. If I have a great defensive position, I push economic research to the front of the queue. If my civ benefits greatly from founding a religion, then I go all holier than thou.

I know what W4L means when he says teching beyond a certain point isn't worth it nor are many buildings (I often feel that way) but we have to build something while our latest bunch of peasants, scoundrels and nobility are cut to pieces attacking former allies. It's tempting to think that with enough champions, we can slash our way down the middle and avoid all the Poindextery stuff.

The hard thing is being at the stage where we're not really just surviving so those "pointless" buildings may give us the crucial edge to finally end the fight once and for all. At this point, having failed to knock out the enemy, they could be the game ender. That's where all those extra health, extra gold, extra this or that building start to matter.

But, for me, general survival strategies (this thread's title) are early game stuff. After awhile, you're generally surviving but just not winning: that's a different topic involving building this, researching that, etc.

 

[loffenx]

Well unless we assume that domination victory is the goal cranking out troops ad nauseum might not be the best idea, not all neighbours are long term profitable targets for war and sending your troops away around half the world might be risky aswell.

Perhaps domination is the easiest/best victory condition (though the altar is another strong candidate), but it feels alot of the eternal warfare-tips need alot of preconditions.

 

[Worm4life]

There IS a point where it might be a better idea to take a butter approach over nothing but cranking out units, but that point is usually when all the neighbors on your continent are conquered. I see a lot of strategies on this board that I like to call "McClellaning it up" that involves fiddling around getting absolutely optimum cities and never attack until they've amassed level 15 vampiric fleshgolemn archmages with rotating mana affinity promotions when really just cranking out warrior/axemen/champions and throwing them at an opponent would have been far more effective far sooner.

Like someone said, the only real decent economic payoff from hammers comes from producing workers (if you don't count the payoff of your military taking cities). For the most part the only time I use hammers to construct "butter" buildings is when all possible tiles have an improvement, there is no more open land to settle, and my army is as large as can feasibly get and I have yet to lose units that need replacing. A monument for new cities is pretty much the only exception.

If a neighbor is too strong to take with the rush, then the most developing I'll do is the quickest way to score a knockout blow against him. This usually turns out to be founding/converting a certain religion. It could be Chalid, it could be ritualists, or it could be G. Gordon Giddeon. Octopus Overlords early on also works with the unit cranking strategy.


I try to go with the conquest victories because I think winning any other way is a little unfair in FFH. Does the AI even know how to win an altar victory? Tower of mastery? Religious victory? I remember racing to beat the AIs for a transcendence victory in Alpha Centauri or space victory in Civ4, but I've never seen the AIs try this in FFH. Religious victories feel particularly cheap since they never recognize inquisitions as a hostile act, and turning to the same religion makes everyone get along and not declare war which any sane person would do when they saw what you were trying to do.

 

[loffenx]

Ah well, you are certainly right there, the only time I have seen an AI come even close to winning anything but domination was when Arendel Phaedra won an FoL-religious victory simply due to the extremely high spread-rate of the early religions.

I am trying to do some numbercrunshing in my head but I guess it all comes down to that your tactic feels very counter-intuitive, but you might by all means be right.

What about overexpansion, overextending your empire maintenenace/etc.-wise before reaching Champions, has that not been a problem with your "freeze" strategy?