Got my first Immortal victory, but...

[Walrus Paradise]

It feels a little wrong for some reason.

Playing as China, standard speed but small map size. Was originally going to try domination victory but the map was a bit odd with three different continents and everyone spread out. (Fractal map)

Anyway, I focused hardcore on science, built up 4 cities. Around turn 200~ England backstabs me and takes my fourth city, I'm barely able to defend my capital but I peace out with them.

I almost wanted to give up there, but I kept at it. Eventually I became BFF's with Russia, who was on the other continent with a super-warmongery America. I spammed defensive pacts with them all game long (they were way in the lead) to guard me, and repeatedly bribed America to go to war with England and my other close neighbor, Iroquois.

Around 300 I was in second in Science, 3 behind Russia and 2 ahead of everyone else. I figured the only way I can win is with Science and a LOT of bribes to stay out of war.

Well, for some reason Russia didn't continue to focus on Space and built random wonders, so I pulled ahead. I got Hubble, pumped out the spaceship parts and was able to win around turn 390.

I dunno, I'm happy I won but I feel like I shouldn't have.

 

[HughFran]

That sounds like a good win to me!! Why do you feel like you shouldn't have? You used your initiative by setting the other Civs against each other whilst sneakily racing ahead on Science. You'll never win a game of Civ by being friends with everybody and you made some cunning moves to secure the victory even though you lost one of your cities. Obviously it was a small map with only a few competitors but it was still a good win. If you feel this way then perhaps you can start again on a bigger map with more AI players?

 

[Sclb]

You should be happy for win. You did get a little lucky though as you've almost lost the capital. Also I've seen Cathy launch SS under 300 turns. Maybe it's deity, but not immortal, but I couldn't remember. As you get more experience, you'll notice which civ is likely to backstab and will never trust them even if BFF. You'll always be ready to bribe those that are willing to backstab, or simply get a good defensive army just in case. Both Cathy and Liz are on the list of never trust.

 

[Newbstep]

Yeah that's a nice win, science wins never feel "right" though in my opinion. But as Immortal anything goes. You got to the choppa! Nice work.

 

[Walrus Paradise]

Thank guys, I feel a bit better now. Just feels like I stole a victory haha, but I'll take it!

I'm on another game now as the Mayas, my neighbor Siam was sending tons of missionaries into my boarders converting my cities...

I asked him not to, and he said okay, but then two turns later he did it again anyway!

Is this normal? Or does he not care?

We've been allies for awhile now, but I'm not okay with this, so I just turned around and started war with him.

 

[HughFran]

Yes this is normal, the AI breaks their word all the time and then get annoyed when you tell them to stop. It's so ironic that they get annoyed at you for telling them to stop doing something that they shouldn't be doing anyway lol!! There are many Civs that like using religion and they spawn missionaries like fleas on a dog's back!! When somebody starts converting my cities against my wishes I normally DoW on them right away (if I have the manpower to fight them).

 

[beetle]

We've been allies for awhile now, but I'm not okay with this, so I just turned around and started war with him.

Did you have an active DOF going when you made your DOW? If so, then you have just ruined your relations with every other civ for the whole rest of the game. Good luck with that!

Yes, the player is held to much higher level of good behavior than the AIs. I am okay with that, as everything is player-oriented. I don't mind the diplomacy being harsh and not evenly applied to inter-AI relations. I don't mind that the AIs lie.

The in-game behavior I find immersion breaking is when I get a bright red negative modifier from an AI who hates warmongers (especially as my own warmongers is usually pretty limited) but then that AI ends up initiating lots of wars, taking CS, and killing off AIs. I would really like to see civil unrest or significant happiness penalties for being a such a hypocrite.

 

[Walrus Paradise]

I know about the backstab penalty, so I denounced him first, which still gave a negative modifier I hadn't seen before (Denounced someone you made a friendship pact with)

And yeah, The Huns are also in this game, and for some reason they are "worried about my warmongering" which is kind of hilarious.

 

[beetle]

I think backstabbing is backstabbing. So denouncing during DOF is the same relationship penalty as DOWing during a DOF. The AIs will often ask for DOF right before behaving badly -- like forward settling or converting your cities.

Huns or Mongols or Aztec being worried about my warmongering is fine! I am thinking about Shonshone. It is fine that he hates me for warmongers. But then he is 50/50 to go an unprovoked rampage himself. It is that warmongering behavior I find immersion breaking.

 

[Sclb]

Pretty sure denouncing during DoF is lower penalty than DoWing during DoF. It's easy to stop AI spamming missionary from converting your own city without DoW. Just use military units to block your roads and cities. And NEVER give AI open borders. They are civilian that can't pass through your military units making them go around, wasting extra turns and eventually they'll disappear or severely weaken. Same strategy works with GPr, you just need to block the cities, they'll endless trying to go around, but as long as they don't get within 1 tile of your city, you're fine.

 

[reddishrecue]

You should be happy for win. You did get a little lucky though as you've almost lost the capital. Also I've seen Cathy launch SS under 300 turns .

I've also seen something similar before by cathy AI more than once.

 

[beetle]

Pretty sure denouncing during DoF is lower penalty than DoWing during DoF.

Either way, backstabbing shows up as a bright red modifier w/ all future AI relations. The player sees a different explanation for the penalty when it happens, but when the AIs backstab, denouncing and DOWs during DoF are treated the same.

Also, it would be poor design if denouncing during DoF got the player off the hook for DoWing during a DoF.

 

[reddishrecue]

Either way, backstabbing shows up as a bright red modifier w/ all future AI relations. The player sees a different explanation for the penalty when it happens, but when the AIs backstab, denouncing and DOWs during DoF are treated the same.

Also, it would be poor design if denouncing during DoF got the player off the hook for DoWing during a DoF.

If you're the victim to DoF/DoW by AI then other AI could be helpful by making a DoW on the bad AI civ if you protect yourself well enough and somehow get to keep your cities.

 

[Newbstep]

It seems religion is not on the same grounds as diplomacy. I have also seen good allies of mine backstab with religion with no remorse. All you can do is denounce or declare war, but in turn it is the same with your missionaries against other civs. You can convert the crap out of them and all they can do is denounce or declare war. There really is no gray area in the religion game.

 

[Sclb]

Here's an article on all the diplo modifiers, more positive means worse penalty:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=524435
Religion all seem to have minor +2 to +4 penalty, while DoW is +15 to +100 with all civs.
Also, denouncing is +35 to that civ, and possibly another +15 to every civ friends with them
It doesn't seem like there is extra modifier for DoW during DoF, so it might get calculated into the warmonger penalties.

 

[Newbstep]

I think the religious penalties are far to small to be calculated into warmonger penalties, unless you really go at it with the missionaries/prophets, then it would just cancel out.

 

[beetle]

Here's an article on all the diplo modifiers, more positive means worse penalty:

Thanks, I not seen that before.

It doesn't seem like there is extra modifier for DoW during DoF, so it might get calculated into the warmonger penalties.

I am not seeing the backstab penalty at all, so I think it is not a comprehensive list.

 

[Walrus Paradise]

I did get the backstab penalty for denouncing during a DoF, it basically removes your DoF and ruins relations. (Obviously)

What's really annoying is after my first war with Siam, during our Peace he just sent more missionaries in and converted a city, again. Had to wait until it ran out so I could barely take his Great Prophet before it converted my Holy City...

Never seen it this bad before, and it seems the only way to stop it is to war.

 

[beetle]

I have experienced it. I just wait it out, faith purchasing whatever buildings the spammers religion offers. Eventually they will peter out, maybe not until the Industrial era, but that is okay. Then you faith-purchase a GPr and re-convert four core cities. Having your Holy City converted does not matter. You can still build Grand Temple, and any GPr you faith-purchase will be of your religion. Don't fight it off -- use it to buff your empire.

I think the religious penalties are far to small to be calculated into warmonger penalties, unless you really go at it with the missionaries/prophets, then it would just cancel out.

That list includes the religious conversion penalties. I am not sure what “grows worse” means. The backstab penalties is the only thing I see missing from the list. Most diplo penalties are accrued just between the player and a single AI. The warmongering and backstab penalties, however, effect all your relations.