How to properly kickstart Byzantine?

I think that's debatable. I tried your advice and could have picked my reformation belief before I had founded. This suggests I was culturing too fast. Plus If you want to play the influence game with sacred sites you want to grab the building beliefs, and that's competitive.

Left side of Piety before right side should "solve" the non-problem of reaching reform belief a few turns before founding a religion.

Also, more than one full priced set of buildings is often a waste. (Monasteries work well with full priced ones with suitable terrain; but two sets is too costly in terms of faith; you want to finish the faith buying of religious buildings both while they are cheap and before you have the option to faith buy great people)
The full priced one you really want for cultural victories is Cathedrals for slots for great works of art (on top of sacred sites)
However, if Jesuit Priests is still available, unless playing Brazil / France, you will probably win a faster cultural victory by selecting it and faith buying science buildings. (Reaching mid and late game techs allowing theme bonus world wonders faster)
 
I think that's debatable. I tried your advice and could have picked my reformation belief before I had founded. This suggests I was culturing too fast.

I'm surprised that's even possible. I mean, I get the theory that culture pantheon works better for piety, but not to this extent. Maybe I really should try opening Piety sometime if I have lots of terrain for culture pantheon.

So, what exactly happens when you pick reformation before founding? do you get to choose right then or will it trigger later after you founded?
 
I'm surprised that's even possible. I mean, I get the theory that culture pantheon works better for piety, but not to this extent. Maybe I really should try opening Piety sometime if I have lots of terrain for culture pantheon.



So, what exactly happens when you pick reformation before founding? do you get to choose right then or will it trigger later after you founded?


You actually don't get a Reformation Belief if you select Reformation before founding a Religion. I'd say it's a wasted policy, but at that point it's almost like wasting Piety.


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You actually don't get a Reformation Belief if you select Reformation before founding a Religion. I'd say it's a wasted policy, but at that point it's almost like wasting Piety.

Yes. The reformation belief is the jewel in the Piety crown.

I'm surprised that's even possible.

I had a jungles and gems start, so my obvious pantheon choices were sacred path (which I took) or tears of god.

Left side of Piety before right side should "solve" the non-problem of reaching reform belief a few turns before founding a religion.

I've read (above) that you just lose your reformation belief if you take that pick too early. So I went with gold for temples, which did nothing for me in the short term. That is the downside of Piety. Several picks are going to be useless at the time whereas everything in Liberty provides an immediate boost. The same is largely true with Tradition. Ideally I'd like to defer that pick until I had a temple almost up.

Also, more than one full priced set of buildings is often a waste. (Monasteries work well with full priced ones with suitable terrain; but two sets is too costly in terms of faith; you want to finish the faith buying of religious buildings both while they are cheap and before you have the option to faith buy great people)
The full priced one you really want for cultural victories is Cathedrals for slots for great works of art (on top of sacred sites)

The point of the exercise was to see how far I could get pushing tourism with faith bought buildings as Byz. My best so far is 30 at 1000 AD and 60 at 1300 AD. This made me influential with 3/7. Not good enough! The idea is to win a CV before faith buying G Peeps becomes a factor, so I want to go wide as fast as I can accumulate the faith required. Happiness is also an issue, as are military considerations. So far I have not resorted to pop capped ICS.

As you say you want to buy as cheap as possible, so I tech breadth first to avoid the renaissance as long as possible. Likely I will end up technologically backward. Choosing the right map matters too. Isolation suits wide better, but unfortunately your tourism doesn't seem to start accumulating with civs until you meet them.
 
Am I missing something here, or are they really terrible? Since I often play with random civs, my response to getting Byzantium in the future is likely to be "Exit to Main Menu".
I've retired from 2 Immortal games as Byzantium recently, but I thought they went wrong due to my noobiness and micromismanagement. I don't want to say terrible, but you really have to get lucky with religion. And despite me re-playing those games over and over, I never got Sacred Sites because it was first-second reformation to go. Having Ethiopia/Celta in your games pretty much makes you want to bang your head against the wall. I will want to re-try Byzantium and win a CV with them for once.


I've read (above) that you just lose your reformation belief if you take that pick too early. So I went with gold for temples, which did nothing for me in the short term. That is the downside of Piety. Several picks are going to be useless at the time whereas everything in Liberty provides an immediate boost. The same is largely true with Tradition. Ideally I'd like to defer that pick until I had a temple almost up.
Temple Policy does nothing early game, so I find it better delayed. If anything, Tradition opener/legalism/aristrocracy are all good fillers. In fact, I tried opening Tradition, then Piety for shrine building, then all the way to Reformation, picking mandate of haven, organized religion, and religious tolerance, finish Tradition and then finish Piety. But I am not sure if that was optimal. For all I can say, finishing Piety with the temple policy is the best choice, since it will be late enough, and you can choose to plant that great prophet to get the gold generation going right away.

It is also possible to save policies, if you tweak pre-game options, but saving policies in a CV game is dubious. Also, Rationalism is important, so it can be a"filler" for a while, depending on how fast you tech/culture. No?
 
Several picks are going to be useless at the time whereas everything in Liberty provides an immediate boost.

Liberty's policies immediate boosts are so good because they become useless by mid game.
Free settler + faster production in the city one: Very good at the time but when your done founding cities that policy is now useless. (Also even if you were to found cities in late game, it wouldn't matter much if Liberty allows you to build it in 2 turns instead of 3)

Free worker + slightly faster worker improvement rate: Eventually you will have improved all tiles, at which point this will be useless.

The 10% gold one starts tiny but becomes increasingly useful as the game goes on.
But the faster building of shrines/temples & increased faith from them are both more useful immediately; and even if you managed to get reformation before founding the religion, you should easily found a religion way before reaching the next social policy and get it then.

Also the finisher for Piety is very much a snooze and get a much less valuable finisher.
 
But no point in the game matters more than the early ones due to snowball effect, which is why Liberty is still generally better than Piety. Though, Piety temple bonus gold modifier is 25% now, so it starts being useful a lot earlier.
 
you can easily get a religion with every start at every difficulty without picking a single sp in peity
really? so...what if there isn't a good pantheon, nor religious CS or natural wonders on your landmass? A shrine or even a fast expand-few shrines is supposed to get you a religion on immortal+? I don't buy it. Killing barbs for religious CS quests is great, but that opportunity just doesn't present itself every game.

when I play as Byzantines is the ONLY time I go piety. I'm not going to rely on luck just to be able to use my UA.

my advice would be to try to get the belief that makes prophets cheaper, so you can settle a bunch of them. Holy sites with piety finisher are pretty good if you have a handful of them. You should have lots of faith to buy great people that way. Good synergy with the reformation belief that lets you buy any GP (glory of god?)

I play on immortal and last time I did this got an easy sub 300 SV. Basically just piety-->rationalism-->order, nothing fancy. I think for my other beliefs I went mainly happiness and expanded to 6 cities.
 
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