Literature Discussion Thread

[Hrothbern]

Who would know how beautiful Flemish literature is and has been ?

If you translate it in another language 80% of the value is gone.
Only the story line left.

 

[Kyriakos]

Who would know how beautiful Flemish literature is and has been ?

If you translate it in another language 80% of the value is gone.
Only the story line left.

I only know of flemish painting.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Who would know how beautiful Flemish literature is and has been ?

If you translate it in another language 80% of the value is gone.
Only the story line left.

Every literature says the same thing.

 

[Kyriakos]

Every literature says the same thing.

It is only true for the great writers, though. The rest actually can easily benefit from being translated by someone good

As Borges noted: "this book is not faithful to its translation"

 

[Hrothbern]

I only know of flemish painting.

And I only Greek statues, and some very limited recollection of Greek language, incl silly details that there are almost as many different words in Greek for a female as Inuit have for snow.

Paintings, Music, Architecture are much easier understood without an intimate knowledge of the contextual culture.
The more abstract, the more emotional, the more visualised.... the more easy to understand in other cultures.

Language is soooo connected with the very culture itself.
In the choice of words, every word has her own undertones and overtones, the connotations it awakes as well, creating another "sound" another timbre, the basic story line only needing the groundtone.
In the translation process... even if both the languages are native to you..... how big is the chance that you can really translate a word into that other language word with the same connotations, the same cultural load ?
How big is the chance that you do not only translate the basic story line, but also translate the undertones and overtones of the story composed by the connotations of the words you used.
In science articles, with aimed for minimised story lines, highly defined words... yes.
But in rich language usage of literature and poetry... aimed at telling so much more than just the story line ???

 

[Kyriakos]

And I only Greek statues, and some very limited recollection of Greek language, incl silly details that there are almost as many different words in Greek for a female as Inuit have for snow.

Paintings, Music, Architecture are much easier understood without an intimate knowledge of the contextual culture.
The more abstract, the more emotional, the more visualised.... the more easy to understand in other cultures.

Language is soooo connected with the very culture itself.
In the choice of words, every word has her own undertones and overtones, the connotations it awakes as well, creating another "sound" another timbre, the basic story line only needing the groundtone.
In the translation process... even if both the languages are native to you..... how big is the chance that you can really translate a word into that other language word with the same connotations, the same cultural load ?
How big is the chance that you do not only translate the basic story line, but also translate the undertones and overtones of the story composed by the connotations of the words you used.
In science articles, with aimed for minimised story lines, highly defined words... yes.
But in rich language usage of literature and poetry... aimed at telling so much more than just the story line ???

I agree 1000% with the above.
I actually do not approach writing in english at all in the same way as writing in greek, because - exactly - i am not intuitively aware of all the chasms where the connotations flow into. At least in greek i have a fairly good idea of that, and use it to construct undercurrents in my work (most of the effect lies there; i suspect that virtually all notable authors were into such structures, albeit in varrying degrees of consciously attempting to bring this about).
It is also why it isn't at all a good idea to translate to a language which isn't your native one.

 

[Hrothbern]

Every literature says the same thing.

You mean the message of the basic story line by that ?
Love, hope, fear, loyalty, deceit and so many other human nature things ?

 

[Thorgalaeg]

You mean the message of the basic story line by that ?
Love, hope, fear, loyalty, deceit and so many other human nature things ?

I meant that every literary work loses a lot when traslated, not matter if flemish or russian. But now that you said it, i think that is a much more interesting question. Are the different literatures really that different? Or are basically the same, only expressed in a different code?

 

[Kyriakos]

I meant that every literary work loses a lot when traslated, not matter if flemish or russian. But now that you said it, i think that is a much more interesting question. Are the different literatures really that different? Or are basically the same, only expressed in a different code?

I think that they are different, because some linguistic routes will differ considerably. Of course they won't be actually identified by the majority of the authors using the language*, but they are still there.
It is a bit like the routes allowed for imprisoned people in different parts of a maze ^_^

*and, as Kafka wrote in his diaries: "each literature keeps its less prominent writers firmly confined to the territory of their country".

 

[Thorgalaeg]

But it is the same maze doesnt matter the route you take.

 

[Kyriakos]

But it is the same maze doesnt matter the route you take.

It isn't (in essence, and in practice) the same maze if it is so vast that no one will actually follow the same route & some routes would indeed only be accessible to those starting near them

 

[Thorgalaeg]

I think i got lost in the maze. The greek route was too twisted.

 

[Kyriakos]

I think i got lost in the maze. The greek route was too twisted.

As they* say in spanish, the meaning (and center) of the labyrinth is the minotaur

*

Spoiler :

 

[Hrothbern]

I think these posts in the clowns thread originated this thread.
My first post was emphasising that language among other hurdles that can be a barrier to recognise cultural achievements of other countries.
So I add them here:

What is great about Russian culture? Can you name anything that is newer than 1917? they have extended some 19th C cultural traditions into the 20th C in music, dance and literature, but what have they added culturally in the past 100 years that is actually new? Dash cam videos?

Underage prostitutes and golden showers ?

Fun for some maybe, but not a cultural breakthrough.

Culture isn't about number of years of it being prominent, though. Eg the US has been around for something like 1/2 of the time the ancient greek golden era lasted, but you obviously don't see a 2-1 ratio of ancient greek to US cultural creations in media or general awareness.
The 19th century russian literature is enough, still, to make it one of the great global literatures. Individually it isn't unlikely that it presented more important writers than (say) the US, which also had its rise to literary importance in the same era.
Gogol, Chechov, Tolstoy, and even the dreaded and -to a significant degree rightly- fallen from grace Dostoevsky, are more than likely more notable than the also rather few important (globally/in the history of literature) US authors.

In classical music it would be quite ridiculous to even try to compare the two.

Btw, in film-making and animation, USSR had been quite prominent.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Poetry is what evaporates from translations.
--Robert Frost

 

[Zkribbler]

Are the different literatures really that different?

I think so. Decades ago, I read a lot of Carlos Fuentes. Even translated into English, his writing was very different than anything by Americanos. Same with Salmon Rushdies' Satanic Verses.

 

[Zkribbler]

What is great about Russian culture? Can you name anything that is newer than 1917? they have extended some 19th C cultural traditions into the 20th C in music, dance and literature, but what have they added culturally in the past 100 years that is actually new?

The Gulag Archipelago by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn pops to mind.