Lots of questions about the early game - with example

[Ieldra]

Some of this might be blatantly obvious to more experienced players but bear with me, I'm learning. To illustrate my questions, I'm posting a screenshot. Obviously, I'm playing as Carthage, this is King difficulty on a Huge Small Continents map and Marathon pacing.

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Original Size map.

As you can see, I have a really nice starting position with two patches of salt, an oasis. wheat, pearls and deer in easy reach. Also very defensible behind those mountains I'll eventually be able to cross, with space for two more cities along the coast. The white border down south is America's border, and there's France on the same landmass as well which I know because I met the blue warrior you can see west of Carthage. The purple border down south is another city state.

The pink dot is where I plan to place my second city. The mountain two tiles to the east of it is Cerro de Potosi (natural wonder, 10 gold per turn if worked), and I have food sources and another patch of salt nearby. In ancient ruins I found 60 Culture, 1 population, a weapons upgrade for my scout who is now an archer, 50 faith (got the God-King pantheon), a map and gold.

Now the questions:

(1) The eternal question of "build order". This is turn 43, I built a Scout and a Worker and got a free Monument from Legalism. I can't build any building yet since I started tech with Mining and still need four turns to get Pottery, so the question is basically: a settler, another scout or another warrior? Intuitively I'd be going for the settler, since enemies are far away, and start my second city early. Since I got my scout upgraded, that also means it can take out barbarian camps on his own, as long as there is only the one defending unit around.

(1a) Tied closely into that is the question: when do I need more military than what's needed for exploration and perhaps a one-unit garrison per city? I'm always tempted to err on the side of risk and build less of a standing army because it costs time and maintenance, but in one game I got overrun by a Mongol horde because of that. I guess Washington and Napoleon aren't quite as aggressive, but how much of an army is enough as a deterrent as a rule?

(1b) While I'm at it: How is unit maintenance calculated? I thought every unit cost a fixed amount of gold per turn, but that doesn't appear to work.

(2) Expansion:
This is supposing there won't be any land or shallow water bridge beyond the desert in the screenshot, so I won't be able to expand across the water until the Renaissance - which is likely for this sort of map.

(2a) Should I settle the desert to the west? There is this patch of incense, and two fish and some sheep for food and that stone patch for added production. I am loathe to settle in the desert as a rule, but is it worth it? Also, if I settle there, should I settle in an empty desert tile, in order to be able to improve the hills, or should I settle the hills for better starting production?

(2b) An alternative position for my second city is two tiles NE of the pink dot. I lose the wheat, but the natural wonder is just as close, the patch of salt is still in reach, I'll eventually get the other patch of salt one tile too far away from my capital, and it makes it possible to place a third city down the coast two tiles from that patch of dye without too much overlap, supposing an AI doesn't beat me there. Should I use the pink dot or the place two hexes closer?

(2c) I suppose cities on lakes don't count as coastal for Carthage's UA?

(2d) So far I've avoided settling on resource tiles since I can't improve them and I thought I will not get the resource if I can't improve the tile? Is this correct? If I place a city on a luxury resource will I get that resource?

(3) Early land war or not?

(3a) As a general strategy, if I settle the desert and two cities down the coast as mentioned in (2b) I'll have a very defensible four-city "heartland", and I'll be able to use my superior early-game navy, financed by the gold from Cerro de Potosi, to defend myself and maybe harass my..er...competitors a bit. However, that will leave my classical era special land units mostly unused, and there won't be a lot of land battles, which in turn means I won't have a chance at a great general to trigger my mountain-crossing ability.
Now the terrain doesn't give itself to cavalry warfare, so if I want a Classical Era war I may have to expand differently. Supposing there isn't any land not claimed by an AI when I get there beyond the visible area to the SW, this means going E and W between the CS and America. Is that a feasible way to expand? Seems like overstretching things a bit...

(3b) I suppose fighting Barbarians doesn't give you a chance at a Great General? Never happened to me in four games anyway. Or will the Forest Elephants' special ability give me a chance I wouldn't otherwise have? How does that ability work?

(4) Technology

As a rule, I'm hesitant to go too far forward on the tech tree in one area and ignore the rest, but I *really* want the Great Lighthouse. Is it feasible to ignore the rest of the early tree and go directly from Sailing to Optics? How likely is it I'll be able to get the Great Lighthouse? Other than mining, which I got first, I don't really need the other stuff that badly.

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All right, so far the questions. I guess apart from those related to game mechanics, mostly I don't need "canonical" answers rather than hints about where I might be thinking wrongly or are making wrong assumptions. Also, I guess with this kind of starting position small details won't matter a great deal on King difficulty, but I'd rather play a game a tad too easy because of a good start, than one that's frustratingly hard because of a bad start. Time to up the difficulty later.

 

[Calouste]

I'd have settled on the hill south east of your current capital location and gone Pottery first. You have 2 Wheat and a Deer close by and a Granary would generate 5 food.

In your current situation, I'd start production on a Worker and switch to a Granary the moment you discover Pottery.

 

[ixias]

First off, welcome to the forums! I'll go through and answer as many of your questions as possible and throw in some tips/observations as well if you don't mind. While I'm not saying I'm an expert, I have played the game way too much and have beaten it on all the difficulty levels, so hopefully I can help in some way! The first part will be a bit of what I would do in that exact spot and the second part will be looking at what you did.

First off, that's a pretty solid start. I probably would have moved one tile to the southeast, which would allow you to build an Observatory and would add more usable tiles (as opposed to flat desert tiles). Overall, you're fine where you are. While you want to get your Salt up quickly, I probably would have gone Pottery first so you can get the Granary (which would be getting you an easy 5 with the Deer and Wheat).

As for the second city placement, I probably would have gone Liberty, planted a city in the desert, and used the finisher for a Great Engineer to rush Petra. While it's not a fantastic Petra spot, it would give you a new luxury (Incense) and an additional trade route slot, while also making that area pretty decent. With this strategy, I probably would have grabbed Desert Folklore to maximize that city spot.

Going for Cerro de Potosi is a good idea, but you'll need to look at your since that site doesn't offer any new Luxuries. I would look to plant a city around those Spices (which will also get you an additional Salt) at some point. There are a couple of sources of Dye, but you'd be forward settling on Washington, which usually isn't ideal unless you don't mind some war.

Now to specifically answer your questions:
(1)

Spoiler :

The eternal question of "build order". This is turn 43, I built a Scout and a Worker and got a free Monument from Legalism. I can't build any building yet since I started tech with Mining and still need four turns to get Pottery, so the question is basically: a settler, another scout or another warrior? Intuitively I'd be going for the settler, since enemies are far away, and start my second city early. Since I got my scout upgraded, that also means it can take out barbarian camps on his own, as long as there is only the one defending unit around.

With a large map like that, you're probably going to want a couple of Scouts, so that may be a better option. I don't like to build my first settler until I'm around 4-5 in my Capital, but it really depends on my start. Since you have a lot of food around, I would wait to grow a bit before the Settler and build a Scout first.

(1a)

Spoiler :

Tied closely into that is the question: when do I need more military than what's needed for exploration and perhaps a one-unit garrison per city? I'm always tempted to err on the side of risk and build less of a standing army because it costs time and maintenance, but in one game I got overrun by a Mongol horde because of that. I guess Washington and Napoleon aren't quite as aggressive, but how much of an army is enough as a deterrent as a rule?

Going off what I said above, I think you could use at least 1, maybe even 2 more Scouts and fairly quickly. Once they're done exploring, you can use them to clear Fog of War so no Barbarians spawn or use them as escorts. In terms of military, it definitely depends on your neighbors and proximity. In any city you plant ~10 tiles south of your capital should have at least 2 range units and possible a melee unit. If Washington goes Honor and you see a lot of troop movement, re-enforce with some more range. I wouldn't build another military unit until you get Archery to build a few of them to be honest.

(1b)

Spoiler :

While I'm at it: How is unit maintenance calculated? I thought every unit cost a fixed amount of gold per turn, but that doesn't appear to work.

Honestly, I'm not too sure. I'm pretty sure it scales with game speed, map size, and era, but I don't know the exact calculations.

(2) Expansion:
This is supposing there won't be any land or shallow water bridge beyond the desert in the screenshot, so I won't be able to expand across the water until the Renaissance - which is likely for this sort of map.

(2a)

Spoiler :

Should I settle the desert to the west? There is this patch of incense, and two fish and some sheep for food and that stone patch for added production. I am loathe to settle in the desert as a rule, but is it worth it? Also, if I settle there, should I settle in an empty desert tile, in order to be able to improve the hills, or should I settle the hills for better starting production?

I sort of answered this above, but since you took Tradition, it's a hit or miss. If you can get some food to it via Cargo Ships or Caravans, I'd probably put it on flat land so you have more workable tiles, but it's up to you really.

(2b)

Spoiler :

An alternative position for my second city is two tiles NE of the pink dot. I lose the wheat, but the natural wonder is just as close, the patch of salt is still in reach, I'll eventually get the other patch of salt one tile too far away from my capital, and it makes it possible to place a third city down the coast two tiles from that patch of dye without too much overlap, supposing an AI doesn't beat me there. Should I use the pink dot or the place two hexes closer?

It depends on how quickly you're planning on doing it, but as I said before, make sure you're watching your Happiness since you won't have additional Luxuries.

(2c)

Spoiler :

I suppose cities on lakes don't count as coastal for Carthage's UA?

No; only coastal cities. Also, in order to get the city connection, you need to have researched The Wheel and have an un-blocked sea path (ie no land/ice)

(2d)

Spoiler :

So far I've avoided settling on resource tiles since I can't improve them and I thought I will not get the resource if I can't improve the tile? Is this correct? If I place a city on a luxury resource will I get that resource?

You get any resource you settle on once you unlock the Technology needed for it. I often like to settle on Gold/Silver/Gems since, once you get mining, they're immediately connected. This works the same for Strategic Resources as well. A couple of notes: 1. Great People tile improvements will connect Strategic Resources, but not Luxury Resources (ie Academy on Iron will give you the Iron); 2. Indonesia's unique Luxuries from its UA replace the resource, so don't settle a city on a resorce if you're going on a different landmass (only applies to Indonesia)

(3)

Spoiler :

Early land war or not?

You're a bit too far away and the terrain isn't too nice, so I would avoid early land wars. Plus, early wars aren't nearly as beneficial as later wars since you're getting undeveloped cities that produce extra unhappiness and contribute to the penalty.

(3a)

Spoiler :

As a general strategy, if I settle the desert and two cities down the coast as mentioned in (2b) I'll have a very defensible four-city "heartland", and I'll be able to use my superior early-game navy, financed by the gold from Cerro de Potosi, to defend myself and maybe harass my..er...competitors a bit. However, that will leave my classical era special land units mostly unused, and there won't be a lot of land battles, which in turn means I won't have a chance at a great general to trigger my mountain-crossing ability.
Now the terrain doesn't give itself to cavalry warfare, so if I want a Classical Era war I may have to expand differently. Supposing there isn't any land not claimed by an AI when I get there beyond the visible area to the SW, this means going E and W between the CS and America. Is that a feasible way to expand? Seems like overstretching things a bit...

Well, since you went Tradition, I would probably try to get 3-4 developed cities and not worry too much about in-land expansion.

(3b)

Spoiler :

I suppose fighting Barbarians doesn't give you a chance at a Great General? Never happened to me in four games anyway. Or will the Forest Elephants' special ability give me a chance I wouldn't otherwise have? How does that ability work?

If you click in the top left corner (usually where it shows what technology is being researched), you can pull up a menu to show Great Person Progress, including the General. I can't remember how the math works, but each battle adds points to the Great General - the African Forest Elephant adds additional points.

(4)

Spoiler :

Technology

As a rule, I'm hesitant to go too far forward on the tech tree in one area and ignore the rest, but I *really* want the Great Lighthouse. Is it feasible to ignore the rest of the early tree and go directly from Sailing to Optics? How likely is it I'll be able to get the Great Lighthouse? Other than mining, which I got first, I don't really need the other stuff that badly.

If you really want the Great Lighthouse, I'd say to go to Optics, on the way picking up a Granary, then once you research that, do Animal Husbandry or Bronze Working to try to reveal some Strategic Resources, which can add some Production.

I hope that was helpful - sorry it was so long, but I wanted to be thorough. Feel free to follow-up if you have any more questions!

EDIT: Do you have the initial Save? I'd kind of be interested to see if what I was saying would be viable!

 

[Ieldra]

Thanks for the extended commentary, that's exactly what I was asking for. The observation about the Observatory is exactly the kind of thing I still tend to overlook when placing my cities. Drat. Anyway, since answers were long in forthcoming, I simply played on.

First things first: The initial save you requested.
Then, this is how things look in 510BC.

As you can see, unexpectedly there *was* a shallow water bridge in the NW, and I just had to settle up north for the Crab and Wine. After that, circumstances forced my hand to settle in the desert hills fast since otherwise growing Memphis would've cut my colony off. Not the best place but it got me the incense. I've been spending gold buying up ocean tiles to keep the way open, but Memphis is hugely annoying there, eventually I'll have to raze it anyway, might as well do it before the city puts up walls. Ramses is a primitive and a pauper compared to about everyone else, so that shouldn't be a problem once I get my military upgraded.

Economically, I'm pretty well set with a large gold surplus (at least I guess 40+ gold in late Classic is good), and I don't even have the natural wonder yet since the city AI has so far refused to expand there. I was lucky with those two iron resources near the capital, so my capital will be very productive in fairly short order, and I managed to get the Hanging Gardens as the second of two wonders. I'm learning something new with every game, this time it's about luxury resources. I didn't pay too much attention to them in my earlier games, but I have pearls, wine, crab, incense, salt and imported whale, and about to claim dye as well, and the effect on happiness is very noticeable. I didn't even build more than one happiness building so far. Also, Carthage's UA is powerful. I'll need a road down the coast sooner or later, but not having to pay for road maintenance at this time is a huge boon.

Politically, I appear to be ahead of the five civs I've made contact with, having a higher population and at least one social policy more than any of them.
Technology-wise, I don't know if I'm still behind (one early list had me at 3 and the leader at 6), but if so, it's by less than three techs, since I'm 2.8 techs away from completing Classical techs and nobody is in Medieval yet. I'm trying to time my transfer to Medieval with the next social policy so that I can open Exploration. So far, I opened Liberty in-between for the +1 culture per city before I finished Tradition.

Big decision now: war or wonder? Memphis needs to go and I would like some GG points but it isn't really pressing, on the other hand I might be able to grab the Colossus for the additional trade route or the Oracle for the social policy. I would love to have Petra in that desert city (just got the tech), but it will be difficult to build without a Great Engineer.

Follow-up observations and questions:

(1) Can it be that the slower game pace disadvantages the AI more than it does me? Just as in my recent Celts Marathon/King game, I have the impression I'm getting ahead of most AIs in several areas early, when this took me longer in earlier Epic/Prince games. Or is it just that I'm playing better now?

(2) Some way back, an info window popped up comparing civilization productivity. I shared the second place with two other civs with 8, but the leader had a staggering 21. How can that be?

(3) Your comment about building additional scouts: I didn't do it because the slower pacing means one scout can do more before the ways are closed to him. I could basically explore anything I could get to where my scout wouldn't be killed by barbarians with just one. I eventually built a second one as I needed one in the north while the first one was far away, but that was a long time in coming.

(4) Is there any rationality to the AI's preference order for claiming territory? Who in their right mind would claim empty ocean tiles two hexes off the coast (that was another game) before neighboring hills where you could build mines for production, especially if the city already has a large food surplus but is lacking in hammers? Yes, I can buy tiles, but this is prohibitively expensive in Marathon games.

(5) For the first time, I had the opportunity to watch my neighbors' early expansion. The programmer of the AI civs' strategic AI should be fired for incompetence. Gods, I've rarely seen such stupidity when expanding. Napoleon has three cities now and America has started its fourth, but the latest ones will hardly gain them anything they don't already have except some more population. The annoying thing about this is that if you eventually go to war with them, you'll be able to take their cities but more often than not, they'd be a drain on your coffers and happiness rather than providing anything useful. This basically forces me to raze cities if I go to war, which I hate for roleplaying reasons (unless I play an appropriate civ like the Huns). Meanwhile, the only cities I might want to raze for political reasons are my enemies' capitals, and I can't raze those.

(6) Can you interrupt a trade route so that you can reassign it? I may have assigned a cargo ship I need elsewhere in fairly short order.

 

[Calouste]

Economically, I'm pretty well set with a large gold surplus (at least I guess 40+ gold in late Classic is good), and I don't even have the natural wonder yet since the city AI has so far refused to expand there.

Just buy that tile with the Natural Wonder. You have money and are not doing anything with it.

 

[Ieldra]

Just buy that tile with the Natural Wonder. You have money and are not doing anything with it.

I know. I was saving that money to buy a workboat. Besides, this is a Marathon game. That mountain cost 550 gold just 15 turns ago, now it's down to 350 for whichever strange reason. BTW, the workboat costs 540.

 

[Calouste]

I know. I was saving that money to buy a workboat. Besides, this is a Marathon game. That mountain cost 550 gold just 15 turns ago, now it's down to 350 for whichever strange reason. BTW, the workboat costs 540.

Yeah, forgot about it being a Marathon game. The cost of the tile can go down when your city expands to a tile next to it, or when it expands to a tile that is the last one in the lowest cost range if you look at the costs of buying tiles. But you can easily work out how quick you get your money back, Cero Potossi generates 10 gold per turn and instead of working that your city is now working an unimproved grassland or plain.

 

[neilkaz]

I know. I was saving that money to buy a workboat. Besides, this is a Marathon game. That mountain cost 550 gold just 15 turns ago, now it's down to 350 for whichever strange reason. BTW, the workboat costs 540.

I would certainly buy that tile now as I think your city can afford to assign a worker there and still grow. In 35 turns you're investment is paid back and after that you're making a profit noting how many more turns Marathon will go.

You can always build workboats in Carthage and sail the short distance over to Gades to fish. Then if Gades is working towards Petra (King so you still have a decent chance to get it, although I'd have teched for Petra earlier if I wanted it) you can buy a lighthouse in Gades.

 

[neilkaz]

I'd have settled on the hill south east of your current capital location and gone Pottery first. You have 2 Wheat and a Deer close by and a Granary would generate 5 food.

Yes, this. Most experts feel that it is worth spending the initial turn to move onto a hill or tile that will result in higher initial capitol production. Playing normal speed this is usually the difference between building your initial scouts in 5 turns rather than 7 and everything else is built a little quicker as well and without hurting early city growth. In this case, that cap spot would allow for an observatory also.

I can't imagine many circumstances where I'd go mining first unless I'd settled on a mining resourse at a difficulty level high enough where the AI can pay me at least close to full value if I sell it and even then I suspect pottery first is usually better.

Another factor with pottery is that you can build a shrine which in this case combined with the 1 fpt from God-King will help you along the road to getting a GP and religion, but here it is the granary that will really help early growth due to deer and wheat.

 

[neilkaz]

"I'm trying to time my transfer to Medieval with the next social policy so that I can open Exploration. So far, I opened Liberty in-between for the +1 culture per city before I finished Tradition."

I think I'd have finished Tradition first for the free ducts and growth. However, having gone Liberty now, are Pyramids still available? That might be worth a try for two free workers and the worker enhancement and culture and GE point. However, if you don't need the workers noting a peaceful Carthage has little need for roads with your all coastal cities, then maybe pass on Pyramids.

I'd have wanted to get to Midieval quicker since there's some great policies for you in Exploration like 3 production per coastal city.

 

[Ieldra]

@neilkaz:
No, the Pyramids were gone at that time. The Colossus was gone a little later as well - some AI appears to going for the wonders in the military part of the tech tree. However, I got the Oracle and Petra (in the desert city). Regarding getting to Medieval for earlier access to Exploration, that might've been possible but I felt that I needed to finish Tradition first since the +15% wonder production was the last item I had to claim, and I needed it.

Yeah, the decision not to move one tile to the E from the starting position was not optimal. Perhaps I'll replay things from the start some time to see how it goes.

Apart from that, I'm in 650AD now and things are going slow. I can't explore any more before I get to the Renaissance since I don't want to get stuck behind AI coastal territory without an Open Borders treaty, and anyway I already know most of the coastal places I can reach. So I mostly stay "indoors" and build while I try to find out how to best increase my happiness before the Renaissance colonization wave where I'll try to grab two or three interesting places on the inevitable islands with only city-state presence.

 

[neilkaz]

Unless you're not building a wonder soon and are under attack so city defense matters, the final policy you take in Tradition should be Oligarchy and you should take the wonder policy sooner.

 

[CraigMak]

First off I would move to the hill for that extra early hammer plus it's touching a mountain so you can get an observatory which is clutch in any capital.

If ruins are on I would go scout first then a monument, shrine, granary, worker, worker

Pantheon: Probably Earth Mother

The continent actually looks quite large to me, Id' probably do a liberty tradition mix. Open Tradition then go Liberty straight for the settler, then go back to tradition and get the free monuments then OP Monarchy, Landed elite etc. to the tradition finisher.

Found as many cities as you can with mountains for observatories and coasts for cargo ships plus a unique luxury or at least one you can trade away.

Start cities on granaries then libraries. Stop making cities when you have 3 or 4 to get National college. Make more cities if possible once you have NC as long as they have a luxury plus mountain or coast as mentioned before.

Get food caravans/cargo ships running to the cap ASAP so it will grow massively to capitalize on that NC + Observatory combo you will have in the cap. Send any extra cravans/cargo ships to cities with mountains.

For a religion get as much happiness as possible. Pagodas, +2 from temples, +1 from shrines, Mosques, Etc and grow, grow, grow.

If you run into happiness issues rush for Notre Dame, if not then rush for Universities then Observatories(Education then Astronomy).

Rushing Notre Dame would delay Universities since it's the opposite tech path. Rushing Universities will delay workshops & xbows which is bad if you need to defend yourself. So pick your trade off wisely.

This is the general strategy I would use in your given scenario. If the island was smaller I would go straight up tradition with a totally different build order.

 

[ravenmagus]

I'd skimp on the military. Napoleon is actually often pretty aggressive, but your terrain is incredibly defensible - those are some silly strong chokepoints near your capital and second city. Offensive wise it looks like a pain to attack through, too.