Revitalizing Civ 3 Speedrunning

[SuedecivIII]

Hey guys. I used to do speedruns for Civ 3 but lately it's devolved into this.

The strategies rely on changing the game limits, so the turn limit is 1, city elimination set to 1, or the victory conditions limits are pitifully small.

These strats don't really seem skill expressive, it's just a battle of whose computer can end turns more quickly. We talked about this in the discord, and some of us feel that we would benefit from cross category rules. We also think it'd be fun to have categories for difficulties other than chieftain.

I'll be hosting a stream on my Youtube Channel Sunday the 12th, at 12:00 (noon) EDT. We'll talk about speedrunning for Civ 3. I was thinking people can chat if they're interested in doing runs, and we can votes on what kind of runs we'd want to do.

Speedrunning has shown to be a great way to revitalize interest in old games. But the runs need to be interesting or else it won't gain traction.

 

[SuedecivIII]

(Ah crud, posted this in the wrong channel. Sorry, I was checking HOF rules as a reference point. Could a mod move this to a more appropriate subforum? Thanks)

 

[Quintillus]

Moderator Action: Moved to General Discussions

Difficulties other than Chieftain... I was just waiting for the Germans or the Zulu to swoop in there and take those undefended Mayan cities. The Germans did that to my only (undefended) city in a France game recently.... uncivilized barbarians!

Hmm... the "runs need to be interesting or else it won't gain traction" part is what intrigues me. Having played the game a lot, it's not really interesting to me that a 1-turn game ends after one turn, or that reaching 1% domination doesn't take very long. I have seen articles about speedruns for old FPS games that rely on clipping the environment, and I don't see the point of those either (after all, it isn't playing by the rules, is it? you could say that 'set noclip=1' is also just changing the rules, but it's kind of a core rule). But perhaps I'm just not the target audience?

Now what would intrigue me more, and perhaps others, is something that perhaps you've done previously? Speedruns where it's not Fastest Finish like the HOF here, but fastest finish to win in real time. Fastest Small 20K Culture victory. Fastest Large Conquest victory. Fastest Diplomatic victory. Still with default rules, but optimizing for a different variable. Instead of # of turns as in the CFC HOF, which is often accompanied by much attention to detail, and thus slow real-world playtimes, optimizing for that real world play time.

For that matter, we probably have the data to sort the existing HOF submissions by that metric, but such results have never been encouraged by the rules and it's thus unlikely that there are many true standouts in that category.

 

[SuedecivIII]

Now what would intrigue me more, and perhaps others, is something that perhaps you've done previously? Speedruns where it's not Fastest Finish like the HOF here, but fastest finish to win in real time. Fastest Small 20K Culture victory. Fastest Large Conquest victory. Fastest Diplomatic victory. Still with default rules, but optimizing for a different variable. Instead of # of turns as in the CFC HOF, which is often accompanied by much attention to detail, and thus slow real-world playtimes, optimizing for that real world play time.

Exactly, yeah. @Spoonwood has asked me to give the HoF a try. I know some categories don't have many scored runs, but it's just not my playstyle. And while I'm very good, I lack the patience and some of the skills needed for long, grindy, score-maxing HoF runs. But I am fast! It carries over from multiplayer. And very competitive. And like you said, it's a good second metric for fostering competition.

As for the clipping, each speedrun communities decides for themselves. The Any% runs for Pokemon are 80 seconds long, but other categories are far more popular because they actually involve, well, playing the game. But in other games, the 'anything goes" run is the most popular.

Some games use the in-game timer, others use external timers. This is a question I'll have people vote on in Sunday's stream. But if you know any issues with the in-game timer, definitely let me know.

 

[Quintillus]

Exactly, yeah. @Spoonwood has asked me to give the HoF a try. I know some categories don't have many scored runs, but it's just not my playstyle. And while I'm very good, I lack the patience and some of the skills needed for long, grindy, score-maxing HoF runs. But I am fast! It carries over from multiplayer. And very competitive. And like you said, it's a good second metric for fostering competition.

As for the clipping, each speedrun communities decides for themselves. The Any% runs for Pokemon are 80 seconds long, but other categories are far more popular because they actually involve, well, playing the game. But in other games, the 'anything goes" run is the most popular.

Some games use the in-game timer, others use external timers. This is a question I'll have people vote on in Sunday's stream. But if you know any issues with the in-game timer, definitely let me know.

Yeah, I didn't venture into the HOF for many years for the same reason, though I have more in recent years. Definitely different than playing on a timer though. My games are usually among the real-time fastest ones out there, a lot of players micro-optimize much more than I do; I'm just happy to place at all, and don't have the patience for a top-tier finish.

As far as I know the in-game timer does what it's advertised to do accurately. The only issue would be the honor system; it can't prevent someone from spending 2 hours planning every detail for a turn, writing down their moves, and reloading to make all their moves in 53 seconds. Which perhaps that's why it wasn't a traditional HOF metric? But if you are streaming the gameplay as well, that would be verifiable, while still allowing for breaks, since Huge maps especially aren't going to be amenable to single-sitting victories on most difficulties/victory conditions.

 

[Fergei]

If I didn't have an incredibly old computer I could give this a crack. I did a very mediocre victory in a Deity GotM in about 4 or 5hrs as I automate a lot of stuff and am a bit of pacifist. I am not sure how a run could be particularly engaging though, particularly with 60% domination conditions or elimination both being long and grindy and with the minimum 4 turn teching lengthening the game. Maybe the following would be the most entertaining for a viewer:

Fastest One City Culture victory
Fastest Sid victory (specified victory condition)
Fastest pacifist victory (culture flips only)
Fastest to hit a certain hall of fame type score (on Sid)

Would it be more engaging to use a fixed earth map or a set seed, set starting point and set terrain types?
I would suggest small maps would work best for viewer engagement (big enough to not be a joke but small enough to keep games under 2hrs) and to help remove PC tech spec issues.

Are there known exploits (not tactics) in Civ3 to aid a quick victory?

For speed and a level playing field options might be
- Hide friendly moves.
- For extreme speedrunning hide enemy moves!
- Failing that play with capslock on so viewers at least have a hint of a clue of what is going on on the world map.

Or could speed be gauged by number of turns instead? That way you could have two human players competing with 6x AI on Sid on a small map so you see the head to head dynamic. I think that would be the most fun for a neutral if turn time limits were curtailed (like speed chess). But it raises integrity issues if one of the human players tanks on purpose, so this would be more of a just for fun to see two players race for the quickest victory on the same map (I suppose you could do split screen single player games to try and create the same competitive feeling, like Awesome Games Done Quick (if thats what it is called).

 

[Ruin]

This is a really cool idea. I'd like to keep the records on a web page like hof. Or at least a forum thread would be better than discord.

In the meantime, I'd like to claim the Regent Standard Speedrun record with a time of 324 hours, 4 minutes and 3 seconds. As you can see, I was also Persia:

https://gotm.civfanatics.net/results/index.php?month=30161&sort=`timeplayed`

I guess it wasn't a random seed though.

 

[Spoonwood]

This is a really cool idea. I'd like to keep the records on a web page like hof. Or at least a forum thread would be better than discord.

In the meantime, I'd like to claim the Regent Standard Speedrun record with a time of 324 hours, 4 minutes and 3 seconds. As you can see, I was also Persia:

https://gotm.civfanatics.net/results/index.php?month=30161&sort=`timeplayed`

I guess it wasn't a random seed though.

Oh... bigger numbers imply more speed, therefore more time must indicate things got done faster!!!! lmao

Whoever taught you arithmetic should be fired.

 

[Ruin]

@Spoonwood If only you had won that 18 minute chieftain game then you could have a speed world record like me

 

[SuedecivIII]

Glad to see there's interest! It seems people are running but not enough to put down any lists now. Just keep note of notable times.

Rabdag got the time for the emperor default rules category down to 45 minutes. You can run that, or maybe choose a different difficulty, or specific victory condition (I did sci emperor at 65 minutes or so)

 

[Ruin]

@SuedecivIII Your stream vs Rabdag was great, I was pleased to catch it live (so I could blight the chat with comments like 'cap the gap by your cap').

I move that we keep records in this thread for now, use HOF rules (like you do) and have duly noted you two as the record holders for Standard/Emperor/Sci and Standard/Emperor/20k?? respectively.

You can run that, or maybe choose a different difficulty, or specific victory condition

Yeah, uh, I think my niche will be "Difficulties and victory conditions that no one else has submitted yet."

 

[BlackBetsy]

(My first post to CivFanatics since 2005). Suede, I started watching your videos when I picked up Civ 3 again in December and loved the speedrunning video. I tried to speed run after watching it but it was really hard to give up micromanagement of workers! Speeding up on other things really leads to a lot of mistakes, it's really hard in a game based on micromanagement. By the way, your "f-- off!" after bad RNG really makes me laugh, in the way only knowing EXACTLY how someone else feels and reacting the same way makes one laugh.

Just won on Deity for the first time in 20 years thanks to your videos and re-reading this forum from 2005 and my old posts (and remembering how great CivAssist was!). Diplo with Byz on Large 60% Arch against non-seafaring/non-scientific Civs but still a Deity win nonetheless. Stopping here, not moving on to Sid after watching your Winning on Sid with Gandhi series and ... pass on that.

 

[SuedecivIII]

@SuedecivIII Your stream vs Rabdag was great, I was pleased to catch it live (so I could blight the chat with comments like 'cap the gap by your cap').

I move that we keep records in this thread for now, use HOF rules (like you do) and have duly noted you two as the record holders for Standard/Emperor/Sci and Standard/Emperor/20k?? respectively.


Yeah, uh, I think my niche will be "Difficulties and victory conditions that no one else has submitted yet."

Yes. Although Rab's would also be the "any victory conditions" record.

As for rules, we agreed on "default" rules (as in, the rules you'd get by hitting the default rules button in the setup screen), but for respawn ai and culturally linked start locs, these are optional.

I also messaged the mods on the civ speedrunning discord, they're open to posting our categories on speedrun.com.

(My first post to CivFanatics since 2005). Suede, I started watching your videos when I picked up Civ 3 again in December and loved the speedrunning video. I tried to speed run after watching it but it was really hard to give up micromanagement of workers! Speeding up on other things really leads to a lot of mistakes, it's really hard in a game based on micromanagement. By the way, your "f-- off!" after bad RNG really makes me laugh, in the way only knowing EXACTLY how someone else feels and reacting the same way makes one laugh.

Just won on Deity for the first time in 20 years thanks to your videos and re-reading this forum from 2005 and my old posts (and remembering how great CivAssist was!). Diplo with Byz on Large 60% Arch against non-seafaring/non-scientific Civs but still a Deity win nonetheless. Stopping here, not moving on to Sid after watching your Winning on Sid with Gandhi series and ... pass on that.

I hate automating workers as much as anyone. Even in the speedruns they constantly do the most boneheaded things. But great speed requires great sacrifice. Congrats on the deity win!