Sea Peoples Archer and Swordsman
- Thread starter Balam-Agab
- Start date
You are an absolute star! These look brilliant 
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Yoda Power
✫✫✫✫✫✫✫
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2002
- Messages
- 13,869
Beautiful as always. 
Wolfshade
Little Winger
Great units, Balam!
Jerry'sGoldfish
Emperor
very very usefull units!! another dark patch is filled, if we would have had a javelinthrower the line would have been complete. there are also some slingers around, so a whole army could be assembled. 
Wolfshade
Little Winger
JG, javelineer or spearman?
I am for the clear purpose of every unit in the game. If something can be cut off - then it's better to cut it off (very good rule). Slingers/javelineers/archers look for me as the same unit type (OK, archers may have stealth attack - but javelineers will obsolete very quickly then), and how differentiate them? With resource? With techs available in different period of time (1/2 of era, to point the difference)? IMHO, it'd be OK to wait for spearman & horseman from BA, the rest - is just redundant options. IMHO, again.
I am for the clear purpose of every unit in the game. If something can be cut off - then it's better to cut it off (very good rule). Slingers/javelineers/archers look for me as the same unit type (OK, archers may have stealth attack - but javelineers will obsolete very quickly then), and how differentiate them? With resource? With techs available in different period of time (1/2 of era, to point the difference)? IMHO, it'd be OK to wait for spearman & horseman from BA, the rest - is just redundant options. IMHO, again.
Ares de Borg
Norman Knight
Excellent job!
Jerry'sGoldfish
Emperor
javelineers have a better attack and less armour, that is why they are used for skirmishes and taking out picked targets so they can are better then archers and less than swordsmen.
Wolfshade
Little Winger
You're talking 'bout the warfare theory, I'm talking 'bout the Civ3 implementation.
OK, let's discuss it a bit (it's not off-topic as it's discussion of the current pack which may be (hypothetically) extended).
According to your words, archer has A/D = 2/1, spearman = 1/2, swordsman = 3/2.
We can place javelineer between archer & swordsman with stats 3/1 (good attack + less armor), will it be correct according to the warfare theory? Looks like, almost - swordsman should have 4/2 or even 4/3 - if it'll remain as 3/2, then there'll be no benefit from having the Iron. And 1 more unit - horseman, 2/1 2moves. I don't believe javelineers stronger than horsemen - then if javs 3/1, then horsemen 4/1, then swordsmen 5/2 (terminators). Archers become obsolete - they won't beat swordsmen.
One more idea was told by Steph once - he left spears with 1/2 but added +1HP bonus. Archers fail again (redundant) - the question with the horsemen type remains.
So, I don't see a reason to add both archers & javelineers if they'll be used in the same era. OK, they may be separated by the half of the era, but I suppose javelins throwing appeared to be used even earlier than bow. How to force AI to build less effective archers? How to force HUMAN to do it? 
One more thing - what if there could be added horse archers and horse javelineers...
OK, let's discuss it a bit (it's not off-topic as it's discussion of the current pack which may be (hypothetically) extended).
According to your words, archer has A/D = 2/1, spearman = 1/2, swordsman = 3/2.
We can place javelineer between archer & swordsman with stats 3/1 (good attack + less armor), will it be correct according to the warfare theory? Looks like, almost - swordsman should have 4/2 or even 4/3 - if it'll remain as 3/2, then there'll be no benefit from having the Iron. And 1 more unit - horseman, 2/1 2moves. I don't believe javelineers stronger than horsemen - then if javs 3/1, then horsemen 4/1, then swordsmen 5/2 (terminators
). Archers become obsolete - they won't beat swordsmen.One more idea was told by Steph once - he left spears with 1/2 but added +1HP bonus. Archers fail again (redundant) - the question with the horsemen type remains.
So, I don't see a reason to add both archers & javelineers if they'll be used in the same era. OK, they may be separated by the half of the era, but I suppose javelins throwing appeared to be used even earlier than bow.
How to force AI to build less effective archers? How to force HUMAN to do it? One more thing - what if there could be added horse archers and horse javelineers...
Jerry'sGoldfish
Emperor
it is not that easy as you say, could it be that you have the stats for speed, hp and armour for archers?
javelineers can be integrated for no armour light infantry with speed almost as much as heavy cavalry (beeing slower than light cavalry), maybe no armour, not many hp and damage better than archers. if we would have heavy javelinmen they would be better than any sword infantry due to their heavy missile and armour. also horse javelin could be better than light cavalry since they do not approach the target, so they get +1hp, so the weakest cavalry would be light cavalry, followed by horsejavelineer, followed by the ranged (the do not have range but +1 for light and +2 hor heavy) horsearchers, than medium cavalry, adn at last heavy shock cavalry. the whole tweak in comparison between archer and javelineer is resumed between attack, speed, and hp like a mirror of their stats. i hope you understand what i wrote here, cause even i do not understand anymore...
and also there would be the personal option of the player - playing vikings, angles or saxons without angon throwers is not that accurate, and that is no fun for a professional like me, i find pleasure in recreating as much as possible...
i would say that there is an array of units and let the gamer choose for himself what he wants or not. i would also like to ask wolfshade to post a list of stats and thus i would gladly like to help regulating the unit lines. thanks for reading this...
javelineers can be integrated for no armour light infantry with speed almost as much as heavy cavalry (beeing slower than light cavalry), maybe no armour, not many hp and damage better than archers. if we would have heavy javelinmen they would be better than any sword infantry due to their heavy missile and armour. also horse javelin could be better than light cavalry since they do not approach the target, so they get +1hp, so the weakest cavalry would be light cavalry, followed by horsejavelineer, followed by the ranged (the do not have range but +1 for light and +2 hor heavy) horsearchers, than medium cavalry, adn at last heavy shock cavalry. the whole tweak in comparison between archer and javelineer is resumed between attack, speed, and hp like a mirror of their stats. i hope you understand what i wrote here, cause even i do not understand anymore...
and also there would be the personal option of the player - playing vikings, angles or saxons without angon throwers is not that accurate, and that is no fun for a professional like me, i find pleasure in recreating as much as possible...
i would say that there is an array of units and let the gamer choose for himself what he wants or not. i would also like to ask wolfshade to post a list of stats and thus i would gladly like to help regulating the unit lines. thanks for reading this...
Big Bopper
Warlord
Wow, very nice work Balam, Thank You.
Wolfshade
Little Winger
@JG:
How to differentiate all of them?
You mentioned archers, regular javelineers, heavy javelineers, spearmen, swordsmen, light cavalry, ranged cavalry, heavy cavalry. I have few questions:
1) how will you differ light & ranged cavalry in resources? Adding 1 more strat like copper, for example? I'm not asking as newbie - my problem is I have so many, so I can run out of 256 limit (256 entries in the editor is the limit, I posted about it).
2) what about speed? Having light horseman moving with the speed 3tiles/turn will cause modern tank moving 6tiles/turn and aviation of 20tiles/turn - very big map will be required.
3) it's a good array to select for player, what about AI? It doesn't have fun of variety building and, especially, handling. So the beautiful plan may be ruined - AI builds 3 types of 7 available (Guardian's SPQR suffered of this problem). It's OK when you play to beat AI (beating it = fun), and it's not when you expect challenge on par from it. + I myself would build best attacker + defender types only. From the list of unit types it'd be heavy cavalry and spearman, respectively. If something can be auto-produced in addition - I'd use it too, but not like the core.
I do understand your option of choice and historical correctness, but this is the game with some rules which you must (yep) follow to play it.
How to differentiate all of them?
You mentioned archers, regular javelineers, heavy javelineers, spearmen, swordsmen, light cavalry, ranged cavalry, heavy cavalry. I have few questions:
1) how will you differ light & ranged cavalry in resources? Adding 1 more strat like copper, for example? I'm not asking as newbie - my problem is I have so many, so I can run out of 256 limit (256 entries in the editor is the limit, I posted about it).
2) what about speed? Having light horseman moving with the speed 3tiles/turn will cause modern tank moving 6tiles/turn and aviation of 20tiles/turn - very big map will be required.
3) it's a good array to select for player, what about AI?
It doesn't have fun of variety building and, especially, handling. So the beautiful plan may be ruined - AI builds 3 types of 7 available (Guardian's SPQR suffered of this problem). It's OK when you play to beat AI (beating it = fun), and it's not when you expect challenge on par from it. + I myself would build best attacker + defender types only. From the list of unit types it'd be heavy cavalry and spearman, respectively. If something can be auto-produced in addition - I'd use it too, but not like the core.I do understand your option of choice and historical correctness, but this is the game with some rules which you must (yep) follow to play it.
clamel
Prince
- Joined
- May 26, 2011
- Messages
- 528
Getting the stealth into this with javelineers, archer, swordsman and spearmen.
Having a unit with less offense but the ability to strike at certain units that has been "injured" in a stack. That way the powerful spearman can not protect a swordman that has been used in the previous rounds attack.
That would perhaps be the archer, picking off those injured swordmen that was protected by a shield of spearmen.
I do think the issue getting the AI to create the different units is truly hard, but I use stealth also in modern time with units like Bazookas and TOW infantry. Less offense so they are not used as assault infantry, but they can pick of damaged tanks. Like in IRL.
The big shame is that defensive bombardment are only 1 hp and not different like in normal bombardment. That would have open up the big use of HMG and archers for sure. Now any bombardment with zero range always just tick of 1 HP whatever bombard value the unit has.
What a little source-code alteration would have done
Hey I forgot to say
GREAT UNITS
thanks
Having a unit with less offense but the ability to strike at certain units that has been "injured" in a stack. That way the powerful spearman can not protect a swordman that has been used in the previous rounds attack.
That would perhaps be the archer, picking off those injured swordmen that was protected by a shield of spearmen.
I do think the issue getting the AI to create the different units is truly hard, but I use stealth also in modern time with units like Bazookas and TOW infantry. Less offense so they are not used as assault infantry, but they can pick of damaged tanks. Like in IRL.
The big shame is that defensive bombardment are only 1 hp and not different like in normal bombardment. That would have open up the big use of HMG and archers for sure. Now any bombardment with zero range always just tick of 1 HP whatever bombard value the unit has.
What a little source-code alteration would have done
Hey I forgot to say
GREAT UNITS
thanks
Jerry'sGoldfish
Emperor
and i will add to the list light infantry armed with spear and shield, light swordsman, elite swordsman, and the whole line of other units, supporters, and heavy combats that can be differentiated through tweaking of their stats...i am no professional modpacker, just a damn beginner at the beginning of the beginning, but as i have seen so far is that clamel is right, a little code source alteration would have been much needed, and if possible the range would be great. different ranges and missiles, but that is another story...if i would have a list of the stats of units for medieval and ancient units i could figure out a unit line and maybe help improving the game, so if anyone has a list will all the features units can do i would gladly help by creating this list, do you people agree? 
Jerry'sGoldfish
Emperor
also i would try to establish a historical unit line for each of the factions, if you allow, and if this project is allowed by the community, so we could create a professional unit request for the middle ages and the ancient world, or the renaissance
PS sorry for the double post
PS sorry for the double post
Wolfshade
Little Winger
JG, you could create the new thread devoted to the unit line progression from the historical point of view. It may be universal from the beginning, civ-specific in further development. This unit scheme would be a good reference base for all Civilization game releases, as it'd reflect specific aspects which could be implemented in specific scenarios.
As example, I do remember a pic of ancient Greece units progression I downloaded years ago - there were unit types + resources required to build them.
+ Oz may light up our way and find something similar in his Great Library (not sure we invented something totally new today).
As example, I do remember a pic of ancient Greece units progression I downloaded years ago - there were unit types + resources required to build them.
+ Oz may light up our way and find something similar in his Great Library (not sure we invented something totally new today).
Jerry'sGoldfish
Emperor
yes and this thread should be as sticky request thread?! but i would like to see some stats first, than i could make a world map with links on it, or smaller photos where one could see all the units created so far in this direction?!
