Should military Units should cost population in Civ 7?

Should Military Units cost population in Civ 7?

  • Yes

    Votes: 5 55.6%
  • No

    Votes: 4 44.4%

  • Total voters
    9
1. Eeeeeek! 3rd Century Legion Spearmen (Lancers :p) has the same stat as Bronze Age Spearmen and not as Greek Hoplite (who are better armed and armoed?) Are these the same wargear loadout also for Medieval era spearmen? (Before Late Middle Ages Pikemen.
If there's a unit between Spearmen and Pikemen in the classical era. what should the name be? and should it be spearmen wearing iron armor of some kind?
2. And when did truly efficient bureaucracy system shows up actually? one that capable of running an institution of armed forces as serious organization subject to central administration and not mafia style armed men subjected to local bosses?View attachment 666493
could have a seperate 'material of armor', 'material of weapons' stat
 
Now this is exactly what Sid Meir's "Games are a series of interesting decisions" is about! Do you want a worker, or a military unit, or a civilian unit, because each pop can only be 1 of those.

It'd, plausibly, require a major overhaul of population growth and numbers from previous games, but that's honestly fine. If it's managed well it'd make the game much more interesting.
 
I would choose to add a strategic resource type for working age military age adults. You could then build a unit (or create a improvement) when the right number of resources are avaiable. Units would require production, gold, and or faith for maintance.
 
Now this is exactly what Sid Meir's "Games are a series of interesting decisions" is about! Do you want a worker, or a military unit, or a civilian unit, because each pop can only be 1 of those.

It'd, plausibly, require a major overhaul of population growth and numbers from previous games, but that's honestly fine. If it's managed well it'd make the game much more interesting.
It still seems obvious the percentage of a population that makes up a standing and/or professional military force is being grossly exaggerated, here. It is not even nearly comparable to the infrastructure work/labour force, which the one idea I'm quoting wants to be conflated with, directly.
 
It seems to be given that the militar population proportions dont need to be realistic, CIV is full of unreal proportions like how many years take to do anything, cities to world scale, everything economic related, etc. All abstractions for gameplay reasons.
So in the same way the different population classes could be balanced in a way that the player could note and track them, with just the basic of expected proportions, for example:
- Labourers (countryside and industrial workers) should be at least 50% of any kind of society.
- Warriors, Clerics, Traders, Scholars and Artisans* each one representing around 10% of the population but with margin to get some higher proportion from the ideologies embraced by each civ. Like a Pastorial civ with more Warriors and less Clerics and Scholars.

*Note: I use the term "Artisan" for all the creative jobs as a culture related social class (including common entertainers). Paired with the idea of manufactured luxury goods that have strong creative and identitarian value, like Ceramics, Jewelry, Textiles, Music, Cousine, etc. (also Amenities related). In others words the communitarian esthetic prestige complementing the "high art" from the Great Artists.
 
It still seems obvious the percentage of a population that makes up a standing and/or professional military force is being grossly exaggerated, here. It is not even nearly comparable to the infrastructure work/labour force, which the one idea I'm quoting wants to be conflated with, directly.

Even the largest armies of Classical or Medieval Eras were a tiny fraction/percentage of the total "men of military age" (approximately aged 20 to 40) available to the society. That was both because the huge majority of the population was required to keep the rest fed and because the states could not muster enough of the society's wealth to arm, equip, and feed a larger military force. Even the relatively small (percentage wise) Roman Imperial Army put a massive strain on its state.

Medieval states (in Europe) got around this by relying on professional warriors (knights) who maintained themselves on land granted them for the purpose, and a large force of conscripted infantry of, in most cases, dubious military value. Obvious exceptions were the English shire levies (archers), Swiss Cantons, Flemish and Italian city militias, and lowland Scots, all of whom administered massive defeats to forces of armored knights. Once the states began to hire knights instead of calling them up temporarily from their fiefs, the requirements in cold cash became so large they had to borrow immense sums from the new banking families - and not infrequently failed to pay the loans back.

This all changes with the Industrial Era.
First, centralized production of weapons and ammunition brought the relative price of arming troops down.
Second, more efficient agriculture released a higher percentage of the population for potential military duties.
Third, more efficient control of taxation and levies (customs duties were a huge income producer in many states) made more cash available to the State.
Finally, starting experimentally in many smaller states, but formalized in Revolutionary France, the mass conscript army used all of the above to produce armies that compared to everything before, were massive. Most Ancient and medieval battles involved no more than 20 - 40,000 men on each side. 17th -18th century battles between professional musket-carriers involved forces of up to 60,000. The armies under and opposing Napoleon regularly numbered over 100,000, and Imperial France maintained an army of over 350 regiments - 600,000 men or more in uniform almost constantly from 1798 to 1815.
By 1914, the start of the Modern Era, European states like France, Austria and Germany mobilized up to 5 - 8% of their total population, and maintained that for 4 years. Armies numbered in the millions - as did casualties per year of war.

So, there is a Quantum Jump in both real numbers an percentages with the Industrial Era - Industrial War and Armies are not the same as those before, and therefore may need a different mechanism to represent the raising and maintaining of military forces.

I suggest, as a starting point for discussion, that each military unit in the Pre-Industrial (or more precisely, previous to the introduction of Mass Conscription in the Industrial Era) Eras requires one Specialist rather than one general Population Point. This would both represent a smaller percentage of the total population and the fact that the population taken are the 'best and brightest' - young men in prime health and fitness.
Mass Conscription allows units to be 'formed' using general Population Points - possibly more than one unit per Point, with only 'specialized' military forces requiring Specialists - like Artillery, Armor, Air and Naval Units that generally require a more well-trained and educated part of the population.
 
By the way to clarify. The percentages by class are not fixed neither determined by only your government. These percentages are just the expected average for a balanced design and the in-game real values are variable from a set of multiple ideologies, decision events and on-map elements like districts and villages (improvements) to use by each class.

About the change with mass conscription around Industrial Revolution, it could be linked to Nationalism that allow you to "draft". The mechanic is like this:
1- The basics of my model is to have organized groups of units (with limited unit slots) instead of carpets of individual militar units. Also the number of these groups is limited by the need to have a General to be a proper Army or alternatively be asigned to a City as a Garrison.
2- With some exceptions (ideology related) the "regular" militar unit lines need Warrior class population to be trained. Being the only exception the "irregular" line (Commoner>Levy>Militia>Guerrilla) that can be trained from the Labourer class.
3- With the implementation of the Nationalism ideology you can train some of the "regular" lines from your non-Warrior units as part of a Reservist group of units. These groups can be trained (included cost to build) and added to your list of militar groups, but they do not appear on map until you activate the "Mobilization" button in that menu. When mobilized the Reservist units appears on-map (maybe taking a turn?) but they will stop adding to the yield of their class until they are "demobilized" again (taking also a turn?). Futher more the later Egalitarianism ideology would reduce the yield penalization from mobilization.

Maybe groups of just reservists instead of reinforcement to regular armies is not the most realistic design, but Im suggesting this mechanic as a "player friendly" way to mobilize/demobilize and organize on map your non-professional troops. So less micro and faster turns for a less tedious war gameplay.
 
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I remember in Civ3 you could build normal units all game, X turns until finished, no population factors. But once you learned a certain tech (I want to say nationalism but don’t really remember) you could draft citizens out of the general population of whatever city, and instantly produce a weaker unit, of 50% health than a regularly produced unit, a conscript that was weak (hp-wise) but was better than nothing at all, especially in the face of someone else’s troops literally on your doorstep. Perhaps that could be brought back; you “train” your real troops over the turns it takes to build them through regular production, but in a pinch if you need to put a rifle in grandpa joe’s hand and draft him, he is there with a rifle but only 50%/whatever a real trained, produced troop is.
 
.....

I suggest, as a starting point for discussion, that each military unit in the Pre-Industrial (or more precisely, previous to the introduction of Mass Conscription in the Industrial Era) Eras requires one Specialist rather than one general Population Point. This would both represent a smaller percentage of the total population and the fact that the population taken are the 'best and brightest' - young men in prime health and fitness.
Mass Conscription allows units to be 'formed' using general Population Points - possibly more than one unit per Point, with only 'specialized' military forces requiring Specialists - like Artillery, Armor, Air and Naval Units that generally require a more well-trained and educated part of the population.
At which proportions of city specialist or a pool of total specialists available in a player's empire per one unit? or does it also subjet to 'unit recruitment stock options' ?
- Units that requires specialists: Chariots (of any kind), Riders, Horsemen, Horse Archers, Warrior, Swordsmen., Men At Arms, Marksmen, Knights, Cuirassiers, Ballista, Cannon (of all kinds, either 'Siege', 'Medieval' or 'Field')
- Units recruitable from a generic population: Spearmen, Archer, 'Classical era Heavy Infantry' (I've yet to decie a name but many other names spring up to me.. see also this thread.
Note that this also reflects the need of training facilities as well. I don't understand why the term 'Barracks' are used to denote 'Infantry training facility'. Ain't there are better names like 'Training Grounds'? (useful for all kind of land units) for basic training facility. with Page School being intermedieate upgrade (Available in either Classical Era or Middle Ages), and later Cadet School (there are usually one school per branch of service. it should be National Wonder rather than generally available to all 'City/Encampments'.
Training 'Professionals' strictly requires specialized training facilities. 'Amateurs/Auxillia' can be trained from a city itself (using temporary training facilities that only actives for that purpose for a short period of time, like city squares, or even a harvested rice paddy field). You can't train heavy cavalry or artillery units without specialized training facilities (Menagerie and Artillery Academy respectively).
 
If by population limit you mean a limit of units that you can build until you can build them no more like it used to happen in civilization 1 where you would get an alert, 'You can't build a unit anymore.' and the screen would go back to the city to ask you what else to build. I voted no because there's already professional armies that make the upgrades to all existing units with a cost of revenue. There was also an automatic upgrade back in civ 2 where all units were upgraded when the given tech was researched such as metallurgy for cannon and you didn't have to pay the upgrade cost but now you do. So things got worst because now you have to pay for the upgrade in a way. There was already a population limit in civ 1.
 
It still seems obvious the percentage of a population that makes up a standing and/or professional military force is being grossly exaggerated, here. It is not even nearly comparable to the infrastructure work/labour force, which the one idea I'm quoting wants to be conflated with, directly.

A. In 1 regard, doesn't matter 1 bit because it's a potentially really interesting game mechanic that still makes "sense" in regards to being kind of historical
B. It is at the very least within historical bounds and precedent, in 1939 the population of Germany was 80 million (rounded up). By 1945 4 million (rounded down) direct war casualties had been recorded by today's best estimates, 5% of the population directly.
Sure it's not a 1:1 direct thing, but neither is any of Civ, clearly armies don't take up entire mountain chains and never have. It's just about the best balance between being historical feeling and good gameplay.
 
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