So many puppets

[Crunchyxss]

Why does the AI refuse to ever not puppet or raze a captured city? I understand the short term happiness problems, but beyond that I hate having a city I've captured not be under my control. I think I've never seen the AI annex a captured city, does anyone else think this is stupid or is there a reason for this?

 

[Arachnofiend]

Well, the reason I rarely annex the cities I conquer is because annexed cities increase the cost of social policies while puppets do not. I can't speak for the AI, though I am pretty sure I've seen them annex cities; I recall seeing a few Occupied markers on former city-states that were under French control in my last game.

 

[pilot00]

Well right now the Mongols have half a continent of pupeted cities and Monty seems to have annexed 3 city states.

One of the most pressing reasons to force them to annex a city is if they lack space to colonize and/or have lost many cities. They will annex puppets then.

What I haven't seen ever though, is a city state annexing another city

 

[dopingman]

Actually AI LOVES to annex cities, up to a point where it becomes ridiculous (usually 1/3 to half of their newly aquired cities). They usually only raze in the early game or if they capture a complete crap city location (very rare, usually only applies if religion or civ gives special bonuses to the founding civ, but not to the conquerer). City states also often raze aquired cities.

 

[joncnunn]

The AI plays on Chieftain level; which most significantly includes the large Chieftain level happiness bonuses. (If the human is on or above Emperor, the AI gets an even bigger happiness boost [as if it needed more than Chieftains])

But it amounts to an AI need not raze a junk city for happiness reasons.
One of the patches in G&K does make the AI more likely to annex (from the previous never annex). It should also be noted that Chieftain level includes a large reduction in cost of cultural policies so the AI need not worry about over annexing slowing down cultural policies too much. It does slow down AI construction of national wonders. (Just like the human, the AI is required to have 100% of all cities other than puppets have a copy of X building to build the national wonder.)

As to city states, its rare to see them do anything except raze a conquest (except when they captured another city state and so its required to keep it)

 

[pilot00]

As to city states, its rare to see them do anything except raze a conquest (except when they captured another city state and so its required to keep it)

Rare but happens After nuking Bismark's border towns Valletta moved in. Puppeted one and destroyed two others.
Little sneaky gits

 

[Civ4Pengbo]

It takes a very special city for me to want to Annex it puppets are so much easier to handle.

 

[atreas]

It takes a very special city for me to want to Annex it puppets are so much easier to handle.

It is much easier - and IMO better - but there seem to be some tricks.

The most important is to remember that puppets have always Gold Focus. This is really good because they are going to give to you effortlessly tons of gold, and later science (Rationalism), through trading posts. BUT if you build the trading posts too early, the city will neglect food tiles and go after them, with the result of getting starved.

Even worse, this can also happen when you ARE careful, due to the initial decrease of city populations. For example, if the puppet city goes down to population 2 and happens to have a gold mine in the area, you have a problem...

 

[pilot00]

It is much easier - and IMO better - but there seem to be some tricks.

The most important is to remember that puppets have always Gold Focus. This is really good because they are going to give to you effortlessly tons of gold, and later science (Rationalism), through trading posts. BUT if you build the trading posts too early, the city will neglect food tiles and go after them, with the result of getting starved.

Even worse, this can also happen when you ARE careful, due to the initial decrease of city populations. For example, if the puppet city goes down to population 2 and happens to have a gold mine in the area, you have a problem...

The good thing about trading posts is that you keep the base tile output. That said in jungle, plains, grass you will get either 1 or 2 food in addition to the trading posts output. You can see the best locations providing food and trading post them as to force the governor to assign citizens to them.

Yes the city will not go more than 10 or so pop but remember that if you have say, 20 puppets that grow non stop, you will soon have an empire with huge output in gold and science...But it will collapse due to unhappiness.

I have done it once having read about trading post spam and thought: 'What are these guys saying? I want the cities to be 30+ pop'
And I did it...First time in my life I managed to have revolts in CiV 5

 

[atreas]

The good thing about trading posts is that you keep the base tile output. That said in jungle, plains, grass you will get either 1 or 2 food in addition to the trading posts output. You can see the best locations providing food and trading post them as to force the governor to assign citizens to them.

Yes the city will not go more than 10 or so pop but remember that if you have say, 20 puppets that grow non stop, you will soon have an empire with huge output in gold and science...But it will collapse due to unhappiness.

I have done it once having read about trading post spam and thought: 'What are these guys saying? I want the cities to be 30+ pop'
And I did it...First time in my life I managed to have revolts in CiV 5

But the point isn't to get them big - just to get them a bit going over size 2!!! There is no way of persuading the governor to use this nice wheat tile, instead of the mined gold/trading post plains.

And, of course, there is also tundra...

 

[pilot00]

But the point isn't to get them big - just to get them a bit going over size 2!!! There is no way of persuading the governor to use this nice wheat tile, instead of the mined gold/trading post plains.

And, of course, there is also tundra...

What I am saying is that in the long run it is more beneficial to use the trading posted plain than the wheat. A puppet city will usually be 6-8 in pop (exceptions ofc exist) that means 6-8 citizens. If there is a market there is a possibility that one will be assigned there as a specialist . That means it leaves around 5 citizens to work the tiles. At best you will gain 10 food by working trading posts in grasslands/jungle. At worst you will gain 1 food one production in other tiles. Now add any camps (usually those are worked because the provide gold), sea tiles, wonder/faith beliefs that give empire wide food boosts and a puppet city will reach around 10 or more.

If a city is going to be size 2 its a lost cause to puppet it, I agree to that, best to raze it. What I am trying to say is that it more beneficial to have size 5+ cities stunted to 10-12 pop than allowing them to grow more.

EDIT: If you want to keep a size two city and grow it, you can always pillage the improvements and keep only those that are beneficial to your plan.

 

[Justice1337]

The gold focus Governor in a size 2 city will (most often) select a Grassland/River/TP tile with 2f3g over a Gold Mine tile with 4h3g. After it builds a Mint, it will change. At 6+ pop, it will also change to the Gold Mine. The gold focus does not mean that it will always, necessarily prioritize any tile with a higher Gold output, or a higher net output with equal Gold. At low pop, it will give food a higher priority than normal, and it will also de-emphasize food while the empire is unhappy, along with building Happiness buildings.

The governor is not at all that hard to control once you get the hang of what it does. Aside from nonsense like building Mint before Market and Bank, even with only one Gold/Silver, the decisions are pretty in-line with what you would expect them to be. Screwy things happen here and there though just because the tiles need to be reset all the time even in normal cities, and you can't do that with a Puppet.


Of course whether the AI puppets or annexes doesn't matter all too much, since both are controlled by a robot. You won't see units coming out of a puppet, but the AI will just annex and rush-buy whenever it wants anyway.

 

[Catan_Settler]

nonsense like building Mint before Market and Bank, even with only one Gold/Silver, the decisions are pretty in-line with what you would expect them to be. Screwy things happen here and there though just because the tiles need to be reset all the time even in normal cities, and you can't do that with a Puppet.

Mint first actually is more efficient for your typical small city since 25% of nothing is nothing. Even if there's only one gold or silver tile nearby, the city would have to be already producing 6 GPT, for a market to pay out more than the mint. So, it'd have to be a decent sized puppet (ie: 6 pop or perhaps already has some other gold-y tiles like marble or incense or whatever) to start with for a market to be a better immediate payout. A small city usually gets more immediate benefit from a Mint, and usually I also build mints first where available.

 

[Unresolved]

Mint first actually is more efficient for your typical small city since 25% of nothing is nothing. Even if there's only one gold or silver tile nearby, the city would have to be already producing 6 GPT, for a market to pay out more than the mint. So, it'd have to be a decent sized puppet (ie: 6 pop or perhaps already has some other gold-y tiles like marble or incense or whatever) to start with for a market to be a better immediate payout. A small city usually gets more immediate benefit from a Mint, and usually I also build mints first where available.

The market gives +2 gold and +25% gold. If you only have one gold/silver, then a market is the better choice. They will both give +2 gold, but you don't need to work a production tile with the market. If your city is small, then it's generally not a good idea to be working gold/silver tiles, thus negating the effect of the mint. If your city is settled on the silver/gold, then the market and mint will give equal gold, but the market will give +3 gold eventually whereas the mint won't. In all cases of only one gold/silver, a market is the better build.

 

[Game_Guy567]

I usually just raze cities, if they're in a good area ill just found my own there. I don't think the A.I will annex cities though, I gifted puppeted German city to Egypt 150 turns ago and its still a puppet.