[NFP] Suggestions for new Generalist Units

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What(if any) new generalist units would we like to see?

Man-at-Arms - Medieval Swordsman
Trebuchet - Medieval Siege
Howitzer - Industrial Siege
Rifleman - Industrial Infantry
Anti-Tank Rifleman - Modern era anti-cav. Bumps AT crew to Atomic era.
Gunship - Information Era Helicopter

Tank changes: Move the current 'Tank' to Atomic era and rename it 'Medium Tank'
Tank - Modern era modeled after Mark V WW1 era tank.
Modern Tank - simply rename it to MBT (Main Battle Tank)


I also thought of an idea to make the end game a bit more interesting. Give each Ideology a unique unit.
Fascism - Heavy Tank (Tiger 1 model). Costs significantly more, but has higher combat value, and bonus against other tanks.
Communism - Shock Infantry. Faster to produce than normal infantry. Trains in Army size only. Lower combat value but has bonus when fighting in districts.
Democracy - Paratrooper - More expensive than infantry. Can jump up to 4 tiles away. (similar to paras in Civ V) Has combat bonus when no friendly units are adjacent.

This could be extended to future era ideologies as well.
Digital Democracy - Xcom Squad
Synthetic Technocracy - Robotic Infantry
Corporate Libertarianism - Stealth Fighter/Bomber (F35 Lightning)
 
expanding on the idea of goverment unique units i think there should be units for third tier governments:

Merchent republic: merchent fleet

Theocracy: holy order

Monarcy: nobles (like a unique general (like the el comandante general))
 
What(if any) new generalist units would we like to see?
There are 3 land units I think we need. They exist in one form or another already and their absence messes up a lot of things (in my opinion.) Namely these guys:
  • Man-at-Arms - Medieval Swordsman
  • Trebuchet - Medieval Siege
  • Rifleman - Industrial Infantry
A quick aside:
I would say that the vanilla game was designed around units not having upgrades every era. This turned out to be too sparse a unit roster so they filled a lot of them in. But i don't think the game pacing is such that civ5's almost every era upgrades would work as well. That is not to say one couldn't just change the game pacing. But some people seem to advocate just having units for every era, which isn't realistically a good idea without changing the game pace.

Second, the atomic+info era upgrades are the same. Units end up around 80-85 strength regardless of which era they fall into, so there's no need to have atomic->info upgrades.

Back tot the topic at hand.
A medieval melee unit is sorely needed to make all the military tactics unique units viable and allow knights and pikes to be healthy units. I suspect the lack of medieval melee is why the devs constantly turn a blind eye to the suffering of pikemen.
45 str, cost about 160-180.
Riflemen are the same issue for industrial age uniques and the mounted units of the era.
65 str, cost like 340ish. (I would change the mounted units to compensate.)
Trebuchets because everyone knows catapults fall off HARD in the middle ages due to how city strength scales. And again, domrey could upgrade from catapults.
Trebuchets could have Domrey stats.
I do think the naval units need work too, particularly in the middle ages. We learned the lesson of having a galleass 10 years ago, darn it!

I do like the idea of ideology gov't units, although at the risk of being too WW2 centric, perhaps the ideology wonders could make a comeback instead.
(Plus, the panzer would make such a great german UU instead of the fail-boat...)

As far as future era, I miss the wacky NextWar (civ4) units. We already have unit assets from civ5 & Beyond earth available in civ6, we could use the BE robots and BE aircraft and xcoms if someone wanted to mod it. I don't know how to integrate sounds into the unit assets, is why i haven't played with it too much.
 
Sostratus
True about the game not necessarily needing a unit upgrade every age. There is an aesthetic component for me to where Musket-men/Bombards were really a Renaissance era thing. I would LIKE to see industrial era infantry/cannons. Same thing with my tank suggestions. Although there may not necessarily need to be that many upgrades in the tank tree.

I completely agree with you that Tiger 1 should replace the German U-Boat for its unique. I doubt they are going to go back and replace unique units though.
I disagree with you about making the unique units for the ideologies WW2 themed. WW2 was one of the biggest events in world history and was very much an ideological war between the ideologies represented in this game. I wouldn't mind a building or wonder as an additional unique component. I think the more unique ideologies there are the better. And frankly I think you should be locked into an ideology once or pick it, or suffer severe consequences for changes.
 
The melee line could have a special trait that allows it to have an upgrade in every era BUT, those upgrade are not line up in the technology line. Then you could shove the Longswordsman and make the Khevsur, Samurai... the unique replacement. Same thing with Rifleman in the Industrial era and make the Redcoat, Garde Impériale... the unique replacement, and make all those civilization "better" just by putting their unique units in the line!

For example:
  1. Warrior (ancient)
  2. Swordsman (classical) at Iron working (bottom technology)
  3. Man-At-Arms (medieval) at Military tactics (top technology)
  4. Musketman (renaissance) at Gunpowder (middle technology)
  5. Rifleman (industrial) at Military science (bottom technology)
  6. Infantry (modern) at Replaceable parts (upper middle technology)
  7. ??? (atomic) at Plastics (bottom technology)
  8. Mechanized Infantry (informatio) at Satellites (upper middle technology).
But there is some imbalance with cheap upgrade cost VS production, and huge jump of power between ancient and classical era (how can we have Horseman at 36, +16 from the Warrior (1 era later), but 1.5 era later the Courser is at 44 (only +8).

If this become a thing, we need a way to prevent / slow down a civilization to easily upgrade his army, and allow the victim to have better tools against invasion. For example: lower production cost of unit and less powerful production card (like -25% cost but card being only +20%, so you could produce in a pinch, while still produce at the same rate as before with the card), and upgrade cost being more costly. If so, the invader will be less able to upgrade his units during the invasion without having a strong economy before.
 
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I agree with most of that. I’d be very happy with a Trebuchet, Medieval Melee and Industrial Melee.

I’d also really like to see the return of Composite Bowman, but they’re probably a bad idea in terms of balance. Maybe they could snuck in just for fun...

I’d really really like to see Ideological Units. I guess they’d be units you could only build if you had a certain Government selected. They’d maybe be a little WW2 or Cold War Focused, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing.

In the same manner, I’d also really like to have Ideological Wonders. I think both would make later era governments much more meaningful, and it’s really just an extension of the existing special policy cards that are only available for certain governments.

Sorry. I’ve said similar things before. But I just couldn’t resist.
 
A few comments (who am I kidding, a Lot of comments!)
First, let's look at the historical antecedents for the suggested units and see how they stack up.
1. Trebuchet. Meaning the Counterpoise Trebuchet, first mentioned in the early 12th century in Byzantium, so a (late) Medieval Unit. Potentially Great Graphics, BUT there's no indication that it had much effect. That is, there is no sudden massive change in fortification types in Europe or the Middle East the way there as when Bombards were introduced, and besieged castles or cities don't seem to have fallen any faster or more often to armies with Trebuchets.
The fact is, masonry fortifications were very hard to crack before gunpowder, and nothing before gunpowder changed that.
2. Longswordsman. First, they were called Greatswordsmen, the 'Great Sword' being the two-handed monsters 4 feet long or more. However, based on contemporary writing and illustrations, most of them used two-handed long-handled Axes rather than swords, which concentrated the impact force more and so were better at cracking through plate armor.
3. Rifleman. Based on Civ VIs depiction of the 'Industrial Era' as having Rifling and Steam Power as second tier technologies, the Era starts in the 18th century. For that entire century and up until about the end of the first third of the 19th century, the principle infantry unit was the Fusilier with a flintlock smoothbore musket and socket bayonet. The black powder rifle, either the muzzle loading 'rifled musket' or the breechloading rifle, only lasted about 35 years, from about 1855 to 1890. After 1890 (well, 1888 the patents were issued) the smokeless powder bolt-action rifle took over as the principle weapon, and remained the chief weapon carried by most infantry until the end of World War Two.
For an Industrial Era Melee choice, then, the Fusilier is a much better choice.
4. Howitzer This and its Mortar cousin were the premier Siege artillery weapons of the Industrial Era, ranging from the smoothbore black powder pieces of the 18th century to Krupp's 305mm weapons of World War One. Given that all cities get 'automatic' defensive upgrades with Steel, an Industrial Era Siege Ranged Weapon is a Good Idea.
5. Antitank Rifleman The antitank rifle was under development from 1918 to the 1930s, so the Modern Era in game terms, but most of the antitank rifles were actually fielded to troops at the end of the 1930s, and were virtually obsolete, as in no longer effective against medium tanks, by 1942. The Real Modern-Atomic Era antitank weapon was Antitank Artillery - give the Modern Era 'AT Crew' a light antitank gun Graphic and, if it's necessary in Game Terms (and it is) give 'normal' Infantry units an Anti-Tank Bonus to reflect the increasing numbers of short-range rockets and missiles like the American Bazooka and German Panzerfaust and post-WWII Soviet RPG that virtually all the infantry were carrying by the early Atomic Era.
6. Mark V WWI Tank - or 'Landships' as they were called. The problem is, these were slower than infantry, utterly unreliable, and an answer to a very specific tactical problem - dealing with Siege Fortifications that extended for 400 kilometers across France and Belgium. They were, basically, Siege Assault weapons - a 1917 version of the Battering Ram, so to speak. IF you want a Modern Era armored successor to the Cavalry, it would be the Armored Car, but that is really a reconnaissance Scout Unit development, not in the Light/Heavy Cavalry line at all.
7. Medium Tank - while the 26 - 45 ton Medium Tank is largely post-1940 weapon, and so in Game Terms in Atomic Era, most of the development of the weapon took place in the late 1930s: German Pz IV, their most numerous medium tank of WWII, started production in 1937, Soviet T-34 went into production in 1939, the French Somua, Soviet T-28 were both in service in the 1930s, and the American M4 Sherman was not produced until late 1941 but the engine, transmission, suspension, and other major components were all developed in the mid-1930s. My solution would be to keep the Medium Tank in late Modern Era, as now for the Tank, but put any Unique Unit Tanks in the Atomic - like the Soviet T-34, the American Sherman (the two most-produced tanks in history) and the German Tiger or Panther.

For 'Ideological Units', the German Tiger is a 'classic' Fascist mainstay, but in fact the more common Fascist unit was the Stormtrooper, representing the ideological infantry like the Fascist Italian Blackshirt regiments and divisions or the German SS units. They could have a major bonus when attacking, since they were all conceived as Assault Troops.
Shock Infantry isn't the mainstay of Communist Armies: it would be, at least in WWII, the Guards Division - representing infantry armed largely with automatic weapons and given a bonus on Defense. Another possibility, peculiarly Soviet Russian, would be the Artillery Division - a pre-built Artillery Corps in game terms that can be given one of several kinds of Bonuses:
Cannon Division - gets a bonus when attacking enemy artillery units
Breakthrough Division - gets a Siege Bonus against cities and fortresses of all kinds
Guards Mortar Division - early Rocket Artillery, can move and fire without having to emplace first, or perhaps only using 1 Movement Point to 'prepare to fire'.
Paratroops were first deployed and used by Communist (Soviet Union, 1932) and Fascist (Germany 1940) Civs. But the place where the Western Democratic Allies excelled, keeping to a WWII theme, would be in Special Forces - the British Commandos and SAS or US Rangers or US/Canadian Special Service Force. These would all have similar abilities: Invisible unless you tried to move into their tile or they attacked, and they can destroy based Aircraft units (SAS were particularly adept at this) or Artillery, or Civilian Units like Great Generals or Support Units like Military Engineers.
 
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This is the reason why I think exact names for Infantry throughout the ages is a bit of a lost cause, because you aren't getting a perfect upgrade path throughout. I'd be perfectly happy to just call them "Infantry - Ancient ", "Infantry - Medieval" etc. and you can pick their weapon types. Like Infantry: rifled musket versus smoothbore musket. Or cannon artillery: mortar, field gun/long gun, versus howitzer, versus galloper gun/flying artillery/horse artillery; Each weapon type will then have its own strengths and weaknesses which will be displayed when you hover over them.
 
This is the reason why I think exact names for Infantry throughout the ages is a bit of a lost cause, because you aren't getting a perfect upgrade path throughout. I'd be perfectly happy to just call them "Infantry - Ancient ", "Infantry - Medieval" etc. and you can pick their weapon types. Like Infantry: rifled musket versus smoothbore musket. Or cannon artillery: mortar, field gun/long gun, versus howitzer, versus galloper gun/flying artillery/horse artillery; Each weapon type will then have its own strengths and weaknesses which will be displayed when you hover over them.

The sheer variety of ways people have found to organize and equip themselves to kill other people continues to amaze. If the Wargames Research Group could publish 12 books of illustrations and documentation on military men and units just from 2500 BCE to 1500 CE in Europe, China and the Middle East - only skirting India and not including Sub-Saharan Arica, the Americas or Southeast Asia at all - then compressing all that variety plus the next 5+ centuries into a playable computer game is going to take more than a shoehorn.

One possibility that I've been thinking about ever since the 'technical upgrades' were added for the GDR, is to extend that system to ALL units.
For instance:
You might have a Swordsman, a Classical Melee unit. His 'standard equipment' is a wrought iron/low grade steel sword, helmet, 'stout' (heavy leather or wood with metal reinforcement) shield. His starting factors are based on that equipment.
There would be, say, 3 possible technical Upgrades for every unit. For the Classical Era Swordsman they might be:
Metal Body Armor - either link mail or metal plates - gives increased factors against Ranged Attacks
Throwing Weapon - javelin, Francisca, Pilum, etc - gives increased Attack Factor against infantry of all kinds
Shield Wall - large overlapping wooden shields - gives increased Factor against Mounted units.

Now, notice that the third, Shield Wall, might come from a Civic or Social Policy change, not. technically, new technology. Also note that a Classical Swordsman with link mail body armor and Shield Wall is, effectively, a Viking or Saxon Huscarle or Jarl from about 500 years after the end of the Classical Era. In other words, this is a way to get the 'transition' units to fill in Eras where the game doesn't give enough time to research and build or upgrade 'regular' units and use them.

I'e got a partial list of potential Technical Upgrades for the current units, but here are examples:
Warrior Upgrades:
Shields (Better Defense against Ranged Fire)
Non-Metal Body Armor (Better defense against Warriors or Slingers or Archers)
Metal Weapons (Better Melee Attack Factor)

Archer Upgrades:
Shields (Better Defense against Ranged Fire)
Metal Body Armor (Better Defense Factor against Melee)
Composite Bows (Better Ranged Attack Factors)

Knight Upgrades:
Great Helm (Better Defense against other Mounted))
Articulated Plate Armor (Better Defense against Ranged attack)
Barded Horse (Better Combat factor versus all Melee/Anti-Cav)

Field Cannon Upgrades
Rifled Barrels (Better Ranged Attack)
Exploding Shells (Better Ranged factor against Forts, walls, cities, any Non-Mounted Units)
Mounted Crews (Faster, can keep up with Mounted = Horse Artillery)

Tank Upgrades
Face-Hardened or Cast Armor (Better Combat Factor in general)
Advanced Ammunition (APDS, APCDS) (Better Combat factor versus Armored vehicles of all kinds)
Torsion Bar Suspension (Faster)

Quadireme Upgrades
Bolt-Throwing Catapults (Better Ranged Factor)
Corvus (Better Defense against Melee Units)
Cataphract decks (Better defense against Ranged Attacks)

Keeping it down to 3 Upgrades per keeps the thing from getting out of hand, and more analysis of what each unit really needs in the game, which I really haven't done in depth yet, would/should allow us to ill In a lot of the gaps where new units would be nice but hard to stuff into the game as it is now designed.
 
6. Mark V WWI Tank - or 'Landships' as they were called. The problem is, these were slower than infantry, utterly unreliable, and an answer to a very specific tactical problem - dealing with Siege Fortifications that extended for 400 kilometers across France and Belgium. They were, basically, Siege Assault weapons - a 1917 version of the Battering Ram, so to speak. IF you want a Modern Era armored successor to the Cavalry, it would be the Armored Car, but that is really a reconnaissance Scout Unit development, not in the Light/Heavy Cavalry line at all.
7. Medium Tank - while the 26 - 45 ton Medium Tank is largely post-1940 weapon, and so in Game Terms in Atomic Era, most of the development of the weapon took place in the late 1930s: German Pz IV, their most numerous medium tank of WWII, started production in 1937, Soviet T-34 went into production in 1939, the French Somua, Soviet T-28 were both in service in the 1930s, and the American M4 Sherman was not produced until late 1941 but the engine, transmission, suspension, and other major components were all developed in the mid-1930s. My solution would be to keep the Medium Tank in late Modern Era, as now for the Tank, but put any Unique Unit Tanks in the Atomic - like the Soviet T-34, the American Sherman (the two most-produced tanks in history) and the German Tiger or Panther.
Does that means 'Tank' as graphically represented as Sherman was actually more like Vickers 6 ton Mark E ?
 
The generalist unit I would like to see

Melee infantry/Main infantry tree
1. Warriors
2. Swordsman
3. Medieval infantry/ Man at arms/ Longswordman
4. Arquebusier represent 1500 to Thirty Year war infantry note: Although Medieval infantry does not need to upgrade to Arquebusier but both Arquebusier and Medieval infantry must be upgraded to Fusilers
5. Fusiler represent 18th century to Napoleonic infantry
6. Rifleman
7. Great War Infantry
8. Infantry represents World War II infantry
9. Assault infantry represent cold war and post cold war infantry
10. Mechanized Infantry represent futuristic infantry

Spear tree
1. Spearman
2. Heavy Spearman
3. Halberdier
4. Pikeman
5. Anti tank infantry
6. Bazooka infantry
7. Guided missile infantry

Range Infantry tree
1. Slingers
2. Archer
3. Heavy Archer
4. Crossbowmen
5. Skirmisher
6. Machine Gun

Melee Cavalry/Main cavalry
1. Horsemen
2. Knight
3. Cuirassier
4. Horse Guard/ Dragoon
5. Rifle cavalry
6. Landship
7. Tank
8. Modern Armor

Range cavalry tree
1. Horse Archer
2. Heavy horse archer
3. Carabiners
4. Same upgrade as melee cavalry from rifle calvary onwards

Siege unit tree
1. Catapult
2. Trebuchet
3. Bombard
4. Cannon
5. Mortar
6. Artillery
7. Rocket artillery

Recon unit
1. Scout
2. Explorer
3. Ranger
4. Spec ops
5. Scout car/ tank

What(if any) new generalist units would we like to see?

Man-at-Arms - Medieval Swordsman
Trebuchet - Medieval Siege
Howitzer - Industrial Siege
Rifleman - Industrial Infantry
Anti-Tank Rifleman - Modern era anti-cav. Bumps AT crew to Atomic era.
Gunship - Information Era Helicopter

Tank changes: Move the current 'Tank' to Atomic era and rename it 'Medium Tank'
Tank - Modern era modeled after Mark V WW1 era tank.
Modern Tank - simply rename it to MBT (Main Battle Tank)


I also thought of an idea to make the end game a bit more interesting. Give each Ideology a unique unit.
Fascism - Heavy Tank (Tiger 1 model). Costs significantly more, but has higher combat value, and bonus against other tanks.
Communism - Shock Infantry. Faster to produce than normal infantry. Trains in Army size only. Lower combat value but has bonus when fighting in districts.
Democracy - Paratrooper - More expensive than infantry. Can jump up to 4 tiles away. (similar to paras in Civ V) Has combat bonus when no friendly units are adjacent.

This could be extended to future era ideologies as well.
Digital Democracy - Xcom Squad
Synthetic Technocracy - Robotic Infantry
Corporate Libertarianism - Stealth Fighter/Bomber (F35 Lightning)

I like your idea of specific unit for certain ideologies but for Democracy, i think G.I or SEALs should be specific unit for Democracy instead.
 
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^ Well i'm more inclined to @Boris Gudenuf proposals to combine Melee and Anticavalry class beginning in Renaissance Era

Mine (Also mod potential)
Melee class:---------Warrior------>Swordsman----------> Man At Arms/Serjean-+
Anticavalry class: Spearman---->Heavy Spearman -> Pikeman------------------+
Infantry class:-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------+>Pike&Shot* -> Musketman* -> Rifleman--------> Infantry ---------> Mobile Infantry -> Mechanized Infantry
Ranged class: Slinger->Archer->Marksman----------> Crossbowman-Cannon-->Field Cannon---------------------> Rifled Cannon-> Quickfiring Gun->AT Crew---------> Modern AT
Heavyweapons-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Volley Gun (The likes of Gatlings) -> Machinegun -> Heavy Weapons-> Sentry Guns.
Light Cavalry:-------------------------Horseman----------> Courser---------------------->Lancer------------------------------>Cavalry----------------->Modern Cavalry->Helicopter->Killer Drone
Heavy Cavalry: Heavy Chariot--> Cataphract---------> Knight--------------------> Cuirassier--> Heavy Cavalry--->(Tank Class)
Tank Class (Begins in Modern Era): Light Tank------> Medium Tank------------> Modern Armor
Siege----------------------------------> Catapult-------------->Bombard------------------>Howitzer--------------------------------- Siege Rifle -> Artillery -> Self Propelled Artillery -> Rocket Artillery

To be continued.
 
Navy
Melee: --Galley-> Trirer -> Roundship -> Caravel -> Sloop -> PT Boat -> Corvette -> Missile Corvette
Cruiser:------------->Quadrireme-> Galleass---------------------> Galleon-------------> Frigate -> Protected Cruiser -> Cruiser -> Destroyer -> Missile Cruiser
Ranged:----------------------------------Heavy Galleass------------> Ships of the Line------------------------- -> Ironclad -> Dreadnought -> Battleship -> Missile Destroyer
-> Missile Sub
Raider:---------------------------------------------------------------------> Privateer-----------> Torpedo Boat----------> Submarine-----------------> Attack Sub
Carrier*: -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> Carrier--------------------->Supercarrier
* Technical upgrades only, promotions can only be earned by paying gold since this unit doesn't fight by itself but all offensive (and maybe defensive) power lies in fighters one carries.
only few known carriers have its own offensive weapon system
- Battlecarrier: (Battleship + Aircraft Carrier) Proposed by both Soviet Union and French Navy. Only built by Japan (Ise and Hyuga, both were 'Dreadnought Era' IJN Battleships but later partially converted to accept carrier planes)

- 'Aviation Cruiser' Grown out of Soviet neccessity (and inferior industrial capability compared to US and UK) and political wordplay to go in and out of Dardanelles (A classic case of 'Point to a deer and call it a Horse' (指鹿為馬)) . Soviet needs a ship that can do a functions of two. basically a successor to their very own 'Battlecarrier' proposals
/
The other 'near cousin' Battlecarrier' which have vertical missile launching cells and torpedo tubes designed to hit enemy ships also built by Japan for their self defense fleet.
The Hyuga and Ise. Both are, by names, successor to Batttlecarrier of WW2. these ships didn't called 'carrier' but instead 'Helicopter Destroyers' and to fulfill 'Destroyers' role. the VLS and torpedo tubes are fitted so it can be classifled as a kind of 'Destroyers'.
 
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Here's my unit lineage idea:

Ancient - Warrior
Classical - Swordsman
Medieval: Longswordsman/Man-At-Arms
Renaissance: Musketman
Industrial: Line Infantry
Industrial (pt. 2): Rifleman
Modern: Infantry
Atomic: Guerilla
Information: Mech Infantry
Future: Laser/Plasma Infantry (because they would be around if it weren't for the stupid U.N, plus there's a GDR in-game)

Edit: I honestly think an imperial era in between the Renaissance and Industrial Eras may be a good idea for Line Infantry
 
Depending on unit lineage, stacking rules and combat system.
For melee lineage. the line merges with Anticavalry (or Phalanx class) by the Early Modern/Renaissance era (Humankind (tm) used the term 'early modern' while the 'modern, atomic and info era' are merged up with 'comtemporary' era and made incredibly long!

Pre-gunpowder
Melee: Tribesmen->Warrior (armed with bronze axe and don bronze armor) -> Swordsman (carries shield and swords) -> Man At Arms (Either wields slayer sword or other 'great weapons' like axe, war hammer, or 'bec de corbin'
Phalanx: Spearman -> Pikeman (Think of Macedonian pezhetairoi and not 'medieval' ones which actually came when the middle ages came to a close) -> Halberdier (or billman)

Gunpowder
Firepower infantry (where melee and phalanx unit meets) : Tercio (Pike and Shot but i'm more on 'tercio' name) -> Fusilier (The more correct name of linear infantry) -> Rifleman (foot soldiers carrying breechloader rifles and bayonets, active between 1860-1914) -> Infantry (also comes with Machineguns) -> Mech Infantry -> Exotroopers
 
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