[BTS] Tier List Of Traits?

Magnificent post overall, Archghost.

Phi hugely boosts the most powerful units (GP).
I have a difficult time seeing how any other trait can be better in potential.

Spi is just so underrated for tech trading (and even little things like resis) :)
You can first trade with one AI, then switch into stuff that another AI likes and trade with them.
Can generate lots and lots of beakers this way.

IND can turn a bad start into an enjoyable map.
How often do we see players stating "barbs killed so many of my deity games"?
Great Wall is usually possible with a 50% bonus, and often quicker than stone which might still need a connection + wheel.
GLH speaks for itself, on deity getting math chops (30h instead of 20) can easily be the difference between having GLH or losing it.
Pyras are also much less painful, example Iso game..you have nothing but forests? Invest them into Pyras for huge gains later.
And now we not even touched cheap forges or failgold yet.
 
Magnificent post overall, Archghost.

Phi hugely boosts the most powerful units (GP).
I have a difficult time seeing how any other trait can be better in potential.

Spi is just so underrated for tech trading (and even little things like resis) :)
You can first trade with one AI, then switch into stuff that another AI likes and trade with them.
Can generate lots and lots of beakers this way.

IND can turn a bad start into an enjoyable map.
How often do we see players stating "barbs killed so many of my deity games"?
Great Wall is usually possible with a 50% bonus, and often quicker than stone which might still need a connection + wheel.
GLH speaks for itself, on deity getting math chops (30h instead of 20) can easily be the difference between having GLH or losing it.
Pyras are also much less painful, example Iso game..you have nothing but forests? Invest them into Pyras for huge gains later.
And now we not even touched cheap forges or failgold yet.

I agree with the potential of phi, but my counterpoint to it being a tier above the rest, if that's what you're suggesting, is that GP and GPP have vastly diminishing returns. On a lot of maps GPs after 5 are both really expensive and not AS useful since you've bulbed everything you want to bulb, phi or not.

I haven't thought of that regarding spi - you can flip AIs from annoyed to cautious or cautious to pleased on-demand with it. Certainly better than I give credit for - and I leveraged it on a recent Ramesses deity game, culminating in a cuir win pre-1000AD, not possible without some diplo tricks.

True about IND as well but I'd say it's not as consistently gamechanging as phi and fin. Hence the "B" tier rating.
 
Want to bump up ORG a step or two in the ladder.
For some reason, I usually don't manage to get to communism as quickly as I have seen others do here on the forums, and I likely build courthouses more often than advised, and going through the cities whipping a round of 2pop courthouses is something that is easily done.
It usually happends in a period either when you are teching to a key tech, or just after a conquest, so in either case the main alternative build is wealth.
Well, 2 turns later I can still build wealth, but now that city is also costing 3-5 gpt less.
With 4pop whips you have to be waaay more selective with where you can afford to whip them.
The cheap lighthouse is also really nice because most often coastal cities struggle more than other cities with production, and getting that lighthouse up makes it so much easier to grow to pop4 for granary whip later on.
Then we have cheaper factories later on which I don't think have been mentioned either, and if the game goes on that long it's also really nice.


I see that many mention AGG as closely intertwined with early barb defense or early rushes and also want to highlight the later benefits of AGG.
You can get your c1+c2+formation pikes only from barracks+theo/vass, or do some trick with c1+c2+amphibious units straight out of the gates.
Drafting normal or CHA or pro rifles is something that largely only fills out your stack of doom.
But drafting AGG rifles that manage to get at least 2 xp (barracks+theocracy or vassalage does the trick) can already then reach pinch promotion which makes them very robust pieces of your warmachine.
 
This was the only point I think I take any issue with, I think. FIN is a blanket enhancement, but as it's tile-based, it's nowhere near as good as a 50% commerce advantage.

First, the obvious one is that only 2c tiles get that much of a relative boost and better tiles get relatively less, so you feel it less if you just work better tiles in the first place (i.e towns instead of coast). In the context of the greater empire it's still only a single extra commerce whether FIN is boosting a 2c or 8c tile, but FIN is a lot more "helpful" to the 2c tile, which you generally don't want to work unless not given a better alternative. It's giving more weight to worse tiles, which I suppose is great in crunch times, but not ideal overall.

Second, and this is the one I had to get past myself after so long, is that as FIN bonus is tile-based, it only gives you any additional help whatsoever if you are actually using that pop to work a tile with base 2c or greater anyway. You take every single population point in the empire, and if it isn't working a >2c, it's averaging down the FIN commerce bonus across all your tiles. Spamming cottages in bureau cap, or late-game US+FS blanketing the landscape with towns -- sure quite a lot of return from the trait going on. Running specialists, changing over to hammer economy, whipping heavily -- not so much.

And i know you know all of this, it's just....FIN is not the economic win-button it looks like on paper; the game is fortunately more complex than that. I've expressed before that I don't think FIN is the best or strongest trait and that simply has to do with commerce not being end-all and be-all, and there being more oblique approaches to moving forward in any game.

I think of FIN more of a cushion rather than a trait that increases total bounds, as despite how commonly the bonus can apply to a tile, the direction of actions and priorities in-game dictate a lot more how much it applies. If you need to bulb for Optics in an iso map, for instance, the extra commerce form working coast and cottages can help filling the in-between tech out easier, will make your economy healthier with no foreign trade. But in the context of the problem and it's proposed solution (need optics ASAP, bulb optics) PHI to cheapen scientists or CRE to start them earlier are actually more direct enhancements.

Incidentally, I think the best parts of most traits that I've come to learn to like more are the quirky things you can do with them to gain small advantages. Things like using IMP to more easily gift an AI a crap desert/jungle city for diplomatic reasons, or PHI to farm GMs for mass unit upgrading instead of the more standard GS for bulbling techs. With FIN i think the greatest part of the trait are little micro tricks like cottaging a Calendar resource to get the extra commerce oomph early long before the actual Calendar tech acquisition or boosting lakes to 3/3 tiles with a lighthouse if you settle in the right coastal spot rather than the overarching "all my commerce tiles get boosted" aspect of it.

Spoiler my opinions :
PHI or (potentially) SPI are the strongest traits in terms of magnitude. They are also directly influenced by difficulty as this drives a lot of the value of bulbs and assistance in diplomacy navigation way up. SPI is really hard to quantify as the strongest aspect of it *is* diplomacy; anarchy turns are pretty trivial in nearly every game I've ever played and you can plan around them, bypass them, etc. And no I still don't think SPI is all that great, I never really have. But in terms of what it can do, greasing diplomacy at a key point can be a hinge for the entire game. Or not, depending on the map or opponent field, random religion aligning, etc.. It's hit or miss, but with undeniable potential in the right situation, or perhaps just a slight advantage here or there, convenience of having some freedom with civics etc.

FIN /CRE are excellent ease of use traits. Each just enhances already standard play further and makes things that much easier for you. Cherry on top kinda stuff. They aren't as involved as the micromanagement inherent with SPI or PHI to min/max things, and not as specific in how to utilize it (fail-gold) like IND, yet they can still be abused hard if you want. I don't think of either as a power trait like PHI but games are certainly simpler with either trait giving one just a little bit easier of a time.

IND is....I'm unsure anymore. I certainly would rather take CRE than IND these days. Fail-gold help is excellent, but I pretty much stopped doing fast MC stuff and dislike early wonder gambits (sans Mids or GLH on the right map) when I started to move up with the help of the NC games so the cheap forges seems like a more specialized gambit than really helpful in a general sense ( I'll just eventually 3-pop whip them later anyway) while I've learned to either build wonders without IND or how to forgo them altogether if not a feasible choice. And a lot of times, I find myself in conflict between trying to balance out funding more immediate expansion with Build Wealth and investing meaningful amounts of fail-gold for better research slightly later. Trying to fit in running specialists puts on even more strain economically when those pop slots can't work a tile. Overall I think it just mostly enhances something I'll do anyway (fail0gold) if I have a resource to abuse, but I can mostly get along without it. I've never felt broken in a tough spot by not having IND, though it certainly feels great when you're doing well in a game and can afford to invest fail-gold at will.

ORG/CHA I feel are sorta similar to FIN/CRE as ease of use traits, just a little bit weaker and with different methods of application. ORG is a personal favorite trait, it lets one expand heavier (which I do a LOT, and because I can, not being a Deity player gives me a chance to snag too much land :p) and makes Lighthouses trivial buildings for any coastal spot (great for working coast when you have to...such as when overexpanded), and eventually Courthouses become a good thing to have since they are cheapened to Granary cost. CHA means a LOT when squeezed for happiness, which on a rough map can last for a LOOOOOONG time (sometimes until Optics/Astro on a really bad one :sad:). It also makes a good early-war trait regardless of that with the extra space for whip anger and the quicker 3rd promos on units. Unless you are running a big empire or are specifically happiness-crunched early, I don't see them as "powerful" as the better traits though.


After that I kinda see the rest of the traits a grab bag of sorts. Other than PRO being the bottom of the barrel I don't think too strongly about any of them in particular.

EXP I've never thought very highly of, and not for a lack of understanding the trait or how it works. Just a middling trait IMO. Shaving turns has a limit of usefulness, snowball or not. It's the whole no anarchy with SPI argument over again. Yes, slightly faster workers is an advantage while you still build them, and yes cheaper granaries makes them stupid easy to emplace whether you care to whip/chop them or not. I enjoy both aspects of the trait, sure...but nothing gamebreaking to the point that literally every other non-EXP civ on the map is gonna be behind or anything. You can't make a power play with EXP like PHI or SPI, it doesn't offer economic cushion or help to dig out, it doesn't auto-pop your borders for you, it doesn't directly enhance your units in war and it doesn't help with barbs. And so on. I do really like the trait for early attacks (axes, maybe HAs) as getting that worker faster and those granaries quicker for earlier efficient whipping CAN make all the difference there in such a critical threshold. But for me, overall an unexciting trait. May as well not even mention the health bonus either unless you are in a FP heavy start.

IMP is a trait I never really liked for the longest time, but playing for a few years has let me see that it makes slow builds of settlers a much more bearable thing especially in low food/moderate hammer cities, lets one toss out gift cities with much less setback, do crazy stuff like forward settle an AI to rob their resources or cut off a land area, etc. It's an entirely different game facet when you can do things like that without stunting yourself as much. I don't think much of the GGs but there's a marked abundance of them so you can go nuts with promos if you want, and it makes that very first super-medic or unlocking the HE that much easier to snag. I definitely have a little bit more appreciation for it after using it some more.

AGG can be either a nice quality of life trait or completely useless. It helps a lot with barbs, enhances an axe rush (or defense!), makes it really easy to produce early 2 promo units (Medic, Cover, Shock) for various uses since Barracks are so easy to get in place. It also ruins 2-pop whipping barracks for overflow purposes, is zero help with barbs if you don't have to worry about them (small island, cornered, surrounded etc) and if you aren't attacking with axes early not helping there either. I like the trait a lot more than I used to after seeing Lain use it in action (and playing more aggressively myself in games). Handy to have in the right situation but won't miss it, pretty much.

PRO...there's not much to say about it that almost everyone already knows. It COULD be quite useful, in the right specific situation...assuming it were unavoidable through diplomacy, no other resource based units are available, etc. In practice it's just not, and this a dump stat of a trait. Fun to do the cho-ko-nu thing or choke a rival with PRO archers, I guess. I think the things I dislike most about it is like AGG, it ruins an early 2-pop building that can be used for overflow purposes on wonders --especially maddening if you are playing Qin specifically.

The thing about fin, though, is that - as I said - it is precisely because its effect is most pronounced in the part of the game where every beaker matters the most, that it is so good. @Fippy , you and @ArchGhost said it's more of a "win harder" trait and can't make wins out of losses, but I quite disagree. You can go much deeper, with a much smaller empire with the commerce bonus, especially on trashy maps. An example is @Lain 's Willem game from a bit ago, where he was jungled in and had a single grass cow for food. Nevertheless made it comfortably to lib with 5 cities by 425 AD - something really not possible with 2c coasts and weaker cottages/sugar, etc. He then went on to also be the first to steel AND grens, stomping on foe after foe despite having so little land. Here, too, it is good to note that the food situation was so poor that perhaps not a lot more GS would've been gotten even with phi. A more recent example is his Hannibal game, where after a construction rush he was boxed in by Cathy's culture and still managed to get to astro and is on the path to steel in the meantime, much faster than without fin.
 
Want to bump up ORG a step or two in the ladder.
For some reason, I usually don't manage to get to communism as quickly as I have seen others do here on the forums, and I likely build courthouses more often than advised, and going through the cities whipping a round of 2pop courthouses is something that is easily done.
This is because you love filler cities. :) They might be good with ORG, but rather marginal without.

To the main subject: for me in most games FIN is the best. I think SPI is quite a lot better on pangaeaish maps than on others.
 
For me personally Cre is probably the best, since it makes games more enjoyable. Overall... FIN probably as lots of other traits are somewhat situational, Fin likely has the highest floor (guaranteed impact on a given game).

IMHO, SPI is enjoyable but not the trait which would drag you out of poor situation most of the time, so... it is massively overrated.
 
For me personally Cre is probably the best, since it makes games more enjoyable. Overall... FIN probably as lots of other traits are somewhat situational, Fin likely has the highest floor (guaranteed impact on a given game).

IMHO, SPI is enjoyable but not the trait which would drag you out of poor situation most of the time, so... it is massively overrated.

Yep, your last statement really rings true. I think I’ll still consider spi “good” but not “great”. All the trading opportunities in the world are useless if you have nothing to trade, and what good is not getting attacked if everyone has infrantry while you’re still limping to rifles?
 
@ Fishman I'd say the Lain game you linked proves the opposite about Fin. I skipped to the end of part 1 video, turn 67. Literally getting 0 additional commerce from FIN.
FIN is pretty dependent on rivers to shine. 2f1c tiles to start are slow. River starts are virtually always easier than non-river starts. Win-more mechanic.
FIN is not better proportionally for smaller empires, it is a tile-based bonus as opposed to great people and wonders.

IND's main perk is failgold, which is accessible MOST games. I saw the point here mentioned that you don't failgold without stone/marble so it's not that useful. This is fallacious, without resources failgold just defaults to building wealth. The correct analysis is it's still a 50% buff to building wealth.
It's not a win-more trait, since enabling GW/Mids/GLH and Oracle (IMM-) are powerful game changing moves in the toughest starts.
 
Good stuff, all. I think @ArchGhost’s point about “power plays” really gets at why traits like SPI & PHI have such a high potential ceiling. They allow for big moves that have a real catapulting effect. But SPI is really only if you know how to work it, so I can see why it’s underappreciated by many.

I’ve found this so varies with play style of course. Being less of a warmonger, I don’t get as much out of SPI. Nor ORG since I find massive empires tedious, though I can definitely see how that is top tier. Isn’t it kind of a “win harder” trait also? I’ve found once I have a massive empire, the game just kinda plays out.

IND I cooled off on after shedding wonder spamming habits. Since it’s bonus is half what the special resource provides, the resource really determines my build choice now. If it’s main perk is really failgold as @drewisfat and others have suggested, I find that a bit anticlimactic I guess.

My addiction is CRE, yes for the border pops and area control. As a peacemonger I’m looking to REX and build and control land that way. But more than that it really changes what city placement looks like and how fast you can get a city up and running by working the best tiles. And early on it means not just not having to build monuments (which are cheap), but forgoing that side of the tech tree for good while. So quicker to writing and then quick Libraries. So that’s solid early: city placement/land control, tech, GP prod, and quicker productive cities. When I don’t play CRE I miss all of these. Everything is painfully slow.

And like some here I’ve come to really dig IMP because of how much it takes an early slow-build item and makes it quick, for beating the AI to spots, which is so up in the air early on. The Great Generals add a fun factor certainly, but the settlers seem like such a needed boost compared to building bonuses since my production capacity is not what it will be yet.
 
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Phi hugely boosts the most powerful units (GP).
I have a difficult time seeing how any other trait can be better in potential.

It actually isn't a huge boost. Philosophical lets you get great people earlier, but it does not improve the rate very much, unless you running a full specialist economy with multiple cities popping great people. A single National Epic city specialised to produce great people will operate only about 40% faster with the Philosophical trait. In the same timeframe you would get 15 great people without Philosophical, you would get 21 with it.

Also the only good part about Creative is the +100% Library build speed. Fight me.
 
While +100% can be misleading, it's not about 15 vs 21. It's about 2 vs 3 and 3 vs 5. It's about the early slingshots, taking advantage of peak bulb value in the midgame.
Mostly it's about Lib. Winning/losing lib race is the most frequently decisive factor in winning or losing the game, and PHI does more to win the Lib race than any other trait. Your first GS will get the academy sooner (assuming you build it, not always smart.) Then it will get you one or two more bulbs on the way to Lib.

Obviously things beside lib rushing exist, but the logic still applies. PHI just especially prone to Lib because the universities education unlocks are actually affordable. So other things being equal, Lib makes more sense than say Astro for PHI. If you lose lib by a couple turns, at least teching education wasn't a waste of time. And of course, more affordable unis basically unlocks Oxford, which gives you more staying power if the game goes longer.

National epic is not a must-build, especially not with PHI.
 
Very good summary @Fish Man
The ranking is obviously a bit different for everyone and depends on the difficulty level and on how much one already understands of the game mechanics
In my early times, I was rating IND and CRE highest, so I loved to play Louis or Qin (on Vanilla he was IND/FIN).
On the other hand, I didn't have any use for PHI. If you play on let's say monarch, you can tech and trade for all you need and you can easily win without a single GP. And still today, I don't see the use in SPIRITUAL. With a strong economy, I can afford some rounds of anarchy and I usually make several switches at one time (except for Slavery and Bureacracy because they improve instantly). And only for pleasing others...?

Also I would point out that the combination of traits is something not to be neglected. If PHI and FIN are one of the highest traits, I wouldn't say that Elizabeth is really a strong leader because you won't work cottages and specialists at the same time. And if the whole package is convincing, you can also work "bad" traits to your favor. Like Dschingis Kahn with quick settlers, cheap barracks and then lots of Keshiks who benefit from some early GG.
 
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