Working towards Tougher Ai (MNAI)

[kindlebox]

FFH2 (MNAI 2.5+) is tons of fun, but I'm curious as to what would be some of the best civs geared towards taking down upper level AI (Immortal/Deity) on large maps. I've been having trouble getting my economy off the ground without being warrior rushed in early games.

So far, I've tried the Luchuirp, and while fireball golems are great, its the getting there part that has been hard, as my economy typically falls behind the AI or I get rushed down. From the forum literature so far, I've also gathered that the Amurites with their wizard/firebows can do decently well, but I'm not so good with managing my teching

The other thing I've considered is what civ has the best potential of making it to the empyrean religion the quickest, such that you could grab Chalid and his entourage of vicars and exploit the AI doom stacks.

Any suggestions/tips as to what civs/strategies would work best at higher levels would be great

 

[Qgqqqqq]

Lucuirp suuuuuck in base MNAI. (Caveat: there are those who disagree with this. But I would say that there are far more that agree then disagree - then again, I am biased.) (Pretty much) anything that the Luchuirp can do, another civ can do better.

Probably the strongest is Flauros of the Calabim, but I would say that the Calabim take quite a long time to get started. If you can get to moroi, they should have a good chance against warrior rushes, but if the map is big enough, I would try to rush for Vampires and then just draft out a spree.

Lanun are also good for rushing up the tech tree to a decent military advantage (like Ratha/Radiant Guard - I would advise against using vicars, as the alternatives are stronger and RG can be drafted) - Hyborem being my favorite.

I would put Amurite on the weaker end, simply because they don't have good early game traits.


But really it depends. Map/civ/pictures to help clarify? The great thing about FFH is how many tactics work, so its hard to encourage a specific one.

 

[akatosh]

I agree with Q. In base FFH (MNAI 2.5), both Luchuirp and Amurites are below-average civs. Both of them are potentially powerful in the late game (Amurites moreso than Luch) but they have to actually be able to survive into the late game. Luchuirp especially suck because they are slow and Tholal nerfed their worldspell--unnecessarily in my opinion--which was originally one of the best and now it's pretty mediocre.

I agree that Flauros/Calabim is the single strongest leader/civ in MNAI 2.5. In earlier versions of MNAI, Keelyn/Balseraphs was a contender as well. Problem with Flauros though is that he is weak until he makes it to Code of Laws--if you can't survive that long you can't leverage his strengths.

If someone put a gun to my head and said that I had one chance to win a game on Deity, I'd pick the Aggressive leader of Khazad. In MNAI 2.5 this is Kandros Fir. There are several reasons why Khazad are a good choice on Deity.

First, this is probably one of only two leaders that has a good chance of fighting off an early warrior rush before you are able to tech Education (the other is Tasunke using Warcry). You can make it to God King and build the Deruptus, which will give your aggressive dwarven warriors +2 xp, allowing them to start with Shock. Mass-produced shock warriors have a chance of fighting off a big stack of triple-promoted Deity AI troops if you can take favorable engagements, which will be easier for you to do thanks to the double-moves in hills you get from your dwarven race. Once you have cleared initial rushes, you can tech to bronze working and counterattack with experienced bronze axemen upgraded cheaply with Ingenuity.

The second Khazad advantage is that you have strong military options at multiple points in the game. I already mentioned the mass-produced Shock warriors pre-Apprenticeship, as well as the early swarm of bronze axes. Once you make it to construction, you get Trebuchets, which are the best early collateral in the game. If you can get enough production online, Trebs and bronze axes are probably enough to clear 2-3 civs off the map.

Even if the Trebuchet strategy doesn't work, Khazad have one last trump card up their sleeve in the form of Dwarven Druids. If you get contained, you can rush for Commune with Nature and get the game's strongest non-hero collateral damage. Since you aren't relying on a hero there is no chance that you'll be denied a key unit by the AI. Once you have a couple of DDs, you can go conquering with even mediocre troops as backup.

Finally, Khazad are rewarded for vertical expansion, so getting outsettled and choked by Deity AI isn't as harmful as it would be for other civs. Khazad can have a strong war machine going on only 3-4 cities. And you don't need that much anyway because you have such powerful collateral damage.

Other civs that have good chances on Deity:

Illians - worldspell, possibility of getting free aggressive from Letum Frigus, and 3 Priests of Winter at Priesthood give you excellent rush potential and rush defense. Even on Deity, if you make it to Priesthood you can probably take out one enemy civ.

Kuriotates - although they aren't militarily strong in the early game, they have a good chance of staying competitive in tech on even one city due to their powerful UBs. Once you get centaurs online you have a chance of taking out an enemy civ, due to strong production in the capital with Godking. Mid-game, if you can stay competitive in tech, you can summon Basium, completely offsetting your unique weaknesses and getting a Deity AI on your side.

Sidar - land is irrelevant for them, so getting boxed in isn't a big deal. You only need to get 1-2 wanes early to be competitive teching. Deity AI builds tons of troops, so that's just tons of potential xp for you. Problem is very early, your warriors don't have any advantages other than the free Homeland promotion, so you have to be very good with your tactics. Once you get Horse Archers it's GG.

Hippus with Tasunke - with Agg/Raiders and apprenticeship, your warriors can take Deity troops on head-to-head in the early game. Warcry is your trump card, use it to win a close battle in order to get some of your borderline warriors up to Combat III/March/Shock 2 level. Once you have these highly promoted warriors you can basically kill one enemy. Once you get horse archers, it's GG.

Lanun - Qgqqqqqq already mentioned them. They can stay competitive in tech, letting you leverage better units to win, and ocean commerce can't get pillaged by the AI early on. Drowned warriors are pretty good units. They can also rush Infernals out, giving you a chance to switch and have a big military advantage for a short time, even on Deity. Do a search for Horatius' Deity Infernals game to get a sense of how it works.

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Civs like Flauros/Calabim and Clan of Embers will be stronger than the civs mentioned above in the mid-game, but on Deity, the problem is usually surviving the very early game. Thanks to Tholal's work, the AI will attack ruthlessly if it detects any military weakness at all. If you want to win you have to have some strategy to deal with very early attacks, and the civs I mentioned are ones that have some trick up their sleeve to do just that.

 

[Qgqqqqq]

Strongly agree with Kandros Fir of the Khazad! I'd been loath to mention him because the only time I've played him in MNAI was on a unusual script, but it made for the easiest deity game I think I've ever played. One thing that akatosh forgot to mention was his FIN trait, which is extremely powerful in MNAI/base FFH, because it synergizes so well with the aristocracy economy.

 

[akatosh]

Forgot to mention Grigori. If you take good care of your first Adventurer, that's probably enough to keep you alive on Deity early on. Rush the arcane line and get hero archmages, should be enough to win if you stack earth or water mana.

 

[kindlebox]

Thanks for the helpful responses you two, lots of civs that I didn't know had potential, now I've got a bunch to try out!

Most recently, I tried Kandros Fir on Immortal and Pangea, and Aggressive really proved its worth there. I was able to take out the two neighboring civs on very early with some luck and shock warriors. After the war, I tried to switch into a Construction beeline for some Trebuchet action, and was able to take out the majority of the nearby Illian forces very SLOWLY. I emphasize slowly because I stopped to heal my trebuchets to full health after taking each city. The problem that I ran into was that after devoting all my resources to my military, I was able to obtain an updated world map and noticed that my empire made up a tiny 10% of the world, despite having eliminated 3 civs.

I'm almost at Dwarven Druids, and could probably finish the game eventually, but it just sort of highlighted how slowly I was conquering VS. how quick the AI was expanding. So as of current, I'm trying to figure out what is the most efficient way to move my trebuchet/chariot stacks across the continent to take out the enemy, but it's a long route and I'm not sure I can do it before my army dies out due to lack of reinforcements.

So I'll happily take your early game advice/civ suggestions into consideration, but when it comes to military strategy, what is the best way to take down a civ? One stack of doom at a time? Or something like 2/3 separate stacks of relatively equal power?

 

[akatosh]

How big of a map were you playing on? Standard size pangaea, if you take out 2 civs you should own more than 10% of the land.

Also, to heal Trebuchets faster, you need adepts with enchantment 1. Dwarven adepts with enchantment 1 get a unique dwarf-only spell called Repair, which heals mechanical units (golems and siege engines). Also, if you can beat the AI to Arete, you can build Bambur. Bambur starts with Repair and Enchanted Blade (for your melee troops) so you can skip Knowledge of the Ether/Alteration entirely.

In terms of # of stacks, it really depends on how much production you have versus the size of AI armies, as well as geography. It's hard to answer that question without some screenshots.

In general, if they AI has a lot more units than you, you want to concentrate your forces into one big stack. If you have very strong stack-killing collateral (DDs) that will make it easier to field multiple smaller stacks. If you are in the center of the map, you will need a mobile response force to deal with counterattacks and dogpiles from other AIs. Horses, mages with summons and recon units do well in this scenario for most civs, but Khazad are handicapped in all 3 of these unit lines so you may just need to use a separate force of mobility 1 trebs and axes, potentially with haste support (although trebs can't be hasted).

edit - you can usually beat the AI to Arete on Immortal if you beeline it. Depending on whether you got a good commerce start or not, you may need to use your first GP to get a priest to bulb Way of the Earthmother or Arete. You may need to be in God King, and immediately start production on Bambur the turn you get the tech in order to get him out quick enough. He's one of the earliest heroes in the game, so unless you are getting attacked by Ljos/Gilden Silveric or Illians with their PoWs, you can fight off a choke pretty easily when you get to him. I've played several games with weaker civs (Elohim, Amurites) on Immortal where the only thing that saved me from a 2-3 way dogpile was getting Bambur out.

This will be significantly harder to pull off on Deity, especially if a fast-teching, religion-focused civ like Malakim are in the game.