Observations on a post-patch game (king)

Bibor

Doomsday Machine
Joined
Jun 6, 2004
Messages
3,130
Location
Zagreb, Croatia
added 17.12.
added 21.12.
*AI flavor probably has something to do with this

Diplomacy

Initial attitude is random*; some might be hostile, most will be neutral or friendly.

As time passes, bonuses and penalties will negate this randomness.

It is entirely possible to have a whole continent "at peace", but even a minor transgression (like attacking, but not even taking) a city state can ruin this*, possibly forever.

If you agreed with someone to join a war with "give us 10 turns to prepare", DO NOT start a war before that civs tells you "now is the time", because it will mark you as a "warmonger".

Although there's still no such thing as "best friends forever", AIs you work with for a long time are pretty reliable.

Buying off City-states allied with another civs is a good way to get them hostile towards you.

Rich AIs will aggressively pursue a diplomatic victory, so be prepared to make your own bribes.

Watch out for those penalties that aren't obvious (AI desires your lands, AI desires your wonders).

A city-state stolen on voting turn still votes for its previous owner!

AI isn't as paranoid about "close borders" anymore, but they might want certain parts of your empire.

Some leaders (in my game Hiawatha) really, really hate warmongers (preying on weak etc.) and peaceful cooperation with these civs (if you're a warmonger) might become impossible.


Combat

The AI now positions units on its own borders. While this can be quite unnerving, at least you know what you'll be dealing with.

Passive bonuses (terrain, Great Generals etc.) pay a lesser role now. Not only does this mean that taking out individual units and cities is harder, but rough terrain (especially mountain chains) can and will slow down invasions significantly. Although Horse units lost their super-powers, they have a new critical role in breaking unit formations (probably as was intended from the start).

Even with the combat penalty and lower terrain penalties, Catapults are still stronger than Archers when it comes to vs. unit combat. This evens out slightly at Trebuchets and Crossbows, but then again Cannons take the lead.

AI can have a sizeable naval and air force. Rome rolled over a larger France with Jet Fighters and Rocket Artillery.

AI (Rome again) nuked French "last stand" at Paris.

AI now groups its units together, both land and sea.

You can't realistically take a city without at least two artillery units of your current era.

Naval vs. naval combat is indeed much stronger; older units can go down in one shot.


General AI strategy

Although its true that some AIs will ICS (i.e. build a city network 3 hexes apart), this is not always the case. I'm not sure if this is flavor or map or AI grand strategy dependent, but in every game at least half of the CIVs do not ICS.

Some AIs settle more aggressively*.

AI purchases land with happy/strategic resources 3 tiles away.

AI indeed tries to settle other landmasses more often.

AI beelines techs for their current (decided upon) victory condition; I had two civs reaching future era and building spaceship parts before me.

AI allies with city-states more often and also steals your allies.


Personal gameplay observations

Don't expect early great scientists. Actually, Great Engineers are the most common great people in my post-patch games (probably has something to do with grabbing Stonehenge, but also with my allocation of specialists). While this can slow down your tech pace, you'll have more wonders to boost your empire.

As far as happiness social policies go, Theocacy is the most powerful (25% of your citizens are turned happy), especially for large empires.

Puppets aren't so exciting as they used to be. The governor won't grow above a certain population even if it can (unworked farms, 30+ happiness), in my experience 11 is the limit.

Puppet cities grow differently, depending on the surrounding terrain. Non-river puppets will stagnate at very low population levels, riverside puppets can grow up to size 10-11, while very food rich puppets (riverside, lots of fish) can grow higher (I've seen 14). This has nothing to do with excess happiness.

It's possible to benefit from puppets (i.e. stay happiness/GPT positive), but be willing to raze any city that doesn't bring something to the table (strategic resources, happiness resources). Happiness is very difficult to manage.

Tech paths and buildings need to be in line with your strategy. Doing "a bit of everything" doesn't cut it anymore. You really need to focus on a certain victory type after populating the land.

If you want to minimize your losses, you need a balanced army; that includes crossbows, lancers, Anti-tanks (AI has tanks now) and AA units.

No more growth without farms. Except Siam.

National wonders, especially National College and Ironworks (also Heroic Epic, due to lowered passive unit bonuses elsewhere) are extremely powerful. National College boosts your early and mid-game science by a sizeable amount, while Iron works with its 10:c5production: turns your production city into a wonder/unit powerhouse. The reason why Iron Works is so powerful now is that it gets all the bonuses from multipliers (Railroad, Factory, Windmill, Workshop, Marble etc.).


- Natural wonders that give happiness are "worked", they provide the bonus automatically when within borders. Except for the Fountain of Youth, all others give around 5 "stuff". Fountain of youth in my game was within borders of a city-state, but otherwise... I think its worth warring over.
 
Thanks. I've put in about 3 hours with the new patch, and my experiences are in line with what you've got here. The changes to the national and natural wonders alone make this patch feel like half and expansion to me. I think it's all around an improvement over the pre-patch version.
 
Thanks. I've put in about 3 hours with the new patch, and my experiences are in line with what you've got here. The changes to the national and natural wonders alone make this patch feel like half and expansion to me. I think it's all around an improvement over the pre-patch version.

Speaking of the new natural wonders, how you feel about The Fountain of Youth and El Dorado? Given their fictitious nature, and concerns over the randomness of their occurrence, they are disabled via the XML, at the moment. To hear someone say how awesome they are surprises me. What has your experience been with them?
 
Oh, I haven't run into the fictitious natural wonders yet. My person opinion is that they are a bit silly, and I would have preferred adding other, real natural wonders if that's what they wanted to do. It kind of makes the main game feel more like a less fantastical(?) version of fall from heaven.

When I said I liked the changes to the natural wonders I meant that I kind of like how they all have different yields now. For instance I found Krakatoa off the coast, and it's yield is 5 :c5science:. Unfortunately for me it was basically exactly 3 tiles from the shore So I couldn't found a city that would work it. Basically I never really cared about getting natural wonders in my boarders before, but now there's a decent reason to do that.

For the National wonders, they seem worth building now. I hadn't previously built even 1 I don't think. I still wish they'd change the building needed in every city to a building needed in 6 cities or something (depending on map size) like it was in Civ4. Also there are new ones like the national mint I think it is (available with currency). Addition of things like that in a patch is rather extraordinary in my experience with most games, so I'm pretty happy about what they've done here.
 
Speaking of the new national wonders, how you feel about The Fountain of Youth and El Dorado? Given their fictitious nature, and concerns over the randomness of their occurrence, they are disabled via the XML, at the moment. To hear someone say how awesome they are surprises me. What has your experience been with them?

Updated the original post, I had two of these.
 
- Natural wonders cannot be "worked" anymore, they provide the bonus automatically when within borders.

Oh, cool. I thought you had to work them to get the bonus. It's kind of funny though, when I first got Civ5 I was expecting a happy bonus or something for acquiring natural wonders.
 
I just ran a game as Isabella, and I had to work Old Faithful to get the bonus. Science, Production, and Gold are all tile yields, and therefore must be worked. Happiness, however, is not a tile yield, and therefore does not require a citizen to work it.
 
I've had similar experiences to you, especially with diplomacy. What I like most about diplo at this point (yes it can be buggy at times still) is that whilst you can still work hard to cultivate good relationships, sometimes it is inevitable that one AI will be upset with you (i.e if you settle towards them, make friends with their enemies, build their wonders etc.). This is far more in keeping with real life and IMO far better than the civ 4 model where you could pick your friends not through interaction but simply by adopting their religion.

I have a feeling that some people won't be happy that the game and happenstance choose their friends and enemies for them, but I feel like it will create a far more nuanced and dynamic diplomatic scene.
 
Do you declare friendship?
I did, and some time later they wanted something for free. I declined and got hit, then they denounced me and I got hit with everyone, because my friends denounced me and now allmost all dislike me (GUARDED), except those who hate me.

Is there way to avoid it, or player must crush them in the end?
 
I just gave them the marble. Seriously, they do expect "Friend" to mean that you do stuff for them. :)
 
Well, pre patch I had annoying requests every now and then, such as ALL of my money. Also, there was no way of politely asking for donations as the AI does. (And while we're at that, a means of insulting the AI and a means of asking about their military on your borders to force them to either be dishonest or to declare war would be nice)

So... yeah, I guess I will not be using the declaration of friendship so long as absurd requests are possible. It's nice that they expect you to help them with war, though, I like that part.
 
Do you declare friendship?
I did, and some time later they wanted something for free. I declined and got hit, then they denounced me and I got hit with everyone, because my friends denounced me and now allmost all dislike me (GUARDED), except those who hate me.

Is there way to avoid it, or player must crush them in the end?

I gave friend Suleiman free marble and then he later denounced me anyway because his friend Genghis denounced me for wanting my land and pursuing same victory condition even though we were at war together vs Babylon. There should be some numeric weight system for likes/dislikes and other leaders should not be so gullible to other leader denouncements. Suleiman and I were best buds for centuries and I gave him free marble! Just because Genghis is jealous of me doesn't mean i'm a bad guy! :rolleyes:
 
I gave friend Suleiman free marble and then he later denounced me anyway because his friend Genghis denounced me for wanting my land and pursuing same victory condition even though we were at war together vs Babylon. There should be some numeric weight system for likes/dislikes and other leaders should not be so gullible to other leader denouncements. Suleiman and I were best buds for centuries and I gave him free marble! Just because Genghis is jealous of me doesn't mean i'm a bad guy! :rolleyes:

Once again, I think we can all LOL at the diplomacy in this game :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

My usual Immortal Pangaea game. I meet Sully receiving some happy sounding "by my beard and my belly greating".. a dozen or so turns later, my next words from him are a DOW. I didn't build near him, didn't have troops near him, didn't steal a CS ally from him (was too early) and had zero contact with him since his initial greating and also as we seem to be on a bulb of the map in the east, I've met no other AI's so his DOW really can't be bcuz of someone else hating me.

I've played dozens of games on Emperor and then Immortal pre-patch and NEVER had been DOW'd by turn 60 without at least some gripes and denouncements from the AI and if not really provoking him.

Anyhow... Sully is now Suleiman the not so Magnificent and has lost two cities and nearly 10 units to me and is about to be crippled back to the stone age, if I can't completely eliminate him.

Diplomacy is still a big ROFL post patch .. neilkaz ..
 
I think the patch has overall been a great improvement - however, I was playing a game on Emperor and for some reason all the leaders I was friends with always wanted a lumpsum of 100 gold in order to have a research agreement.

Granted, I was making quite a bit of money, but has anyone noticed this happening to them?
 
^This is so true (neilkaz).

"Meet the new diplomacy, same as the old diplomacy."

Instead of POS's (negative) you have POF's (pseudo-positive). Slap a :) on the mess and sell it as an improvement.

This ain't no improvement, just re-arranging the deck-chairs. All it does is ensure you'll get even more DoWs and "denouncements" when it comes time to clear out your closest neighbor, a city-spamming AI that would drop a settler between your toes if it could.:rolleyes:
 
I'm wondering where these city-spamming AIs come from.

1) What difficulty level are you playing? and
2) If it's a hard difficulty level, *shouldn't* the AIs be a bunch of jerks looking for excuses to go to war?
 
I think the patch has overall been a great improvement - however, I was playing a game on Emperor and for some reason all the leaders I was friends with always wanted a lumpsum of 100 gold in order to have a research agreement.

Granted, I was making quite a bit of money, but has anyone noticed this happening to them?

I've noticed the AI asking for some money when signing a RA if they were in an earlier era than me. I think it's a nice touch, really, that the game takes into account that you benefit more from the RA than the AI.
 
- AI settles more aggressively (at least Suleiman)

I noticed this in my latest game. On an archipelago map I've basically been surrounded by him popping cities onto single tile islands. Really annoying.
 
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