SGOTM 13 - One Short Straw

[Dhoomstriker]

As you can see from this image, Confucianism has just spread into Gold City! Also, Willem has gone from 6 turns to 4 turns in terms of his Alphabet completion date. Willem also recently founded a 4th City, but I admit that I didn't notice if he did so this turn or sometime within the last couple of turns.



I know that we'd said that we'd switch Espionage to another target once we got a bead on Willem's current Research, but he has decided to spend some of his Slider on Espionage (I remember this fact from earlier when I was looking at his Demographics). I can tell that he is doing so relatively aggressively because last turn we just barely met the criteria for seeing his Research (exactly met it at 176 Espionage Points required) and now we have once again exactly met it at 180 Espionage Points required. So, if I let up on him for even a turn, we'll probably lose sight of his Research. If we start spending Espionage Points on a different AI, we will likely just end up encouraging that other AI to spend more Espionage Points against us. So, unfortunately, for now, I'm just going to keep our Espionage Points focused on Willem.


Cathy also just switched from Hinduism to Judaism this turn. It's all pretty funny, considering how she only has 3 Cities and did not found either Religion, but presumably, her capital must have just picked up Judaism, which would likely have been a sufficient reason to encourage her to switch to it. We know that Isabella founded Judaism but Isabella also has Buddhism in at least 2 of her 3 Cities, so Isabella is likely to remain in Buddhism.


Actually, now that I think about it, I see why we wanted to found Confucianism in Gold City: to see if we could deal with the Unhappiness issue there. Well, maybe the current situation is not as good as founding it there, but we at least have it spread there, so when we dip into Unhappiness, it will be my vote to immediately Revolt into Confucianism.


However, before making that kind of a change, I will definitely pause play.
***EDIT: Below (as per Messages 1367 and 1368), you will see that I have stopped play for the night. Preferably, I'd like to get an answer on this issue before starting the next play session, so that I won't have to pause during the play session for this issue, as, if I recall correctly, it will only be another 2 or 3 turns before we run into Unhappiness in Gold City.


For example, we might want to just try and Open Borders with everyone first, expecting some of the AIs that really dislike Heathen Religions (such as Isabella) to cancel Open Borders agreements shortly after we switch to Confucianism. They might or might not even want to offer us an Open Borders agreement after switching Religions, so I won't make the switch without confirmation from the team.

 

[shyuhe]

AI in BTS will never break an OB agreement once it's set up, unless it's by demand to stop trading (although AIs never ask other AIs for that) or by declaration of war.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I would also consider cancelling the clams trade with Ragnar after 10 turns. We could lose one to barb galleys if things go south and we don't really care too much about diplo in this game--just AI development rates.

Well, the purpose was to prevent other AIs from giving him that Resource, at least until he connects up his own source.

By keeping the deal in existence, as long as he doesn't become anyone's Worst Enemy, we can immediately cancel it at the time that he offers us a Resource in trade. At that point, he'll either gladly take our otherwise nearly-useless Clam (which he wouldn't do if he was getting a Clam from a different AI) or he will tell us that he has already hooked-up his own source of Clam, which will simply tell us that the trade has done its job and has kept him from getting a Clam in trade from a different AI.

My biggest fear is that even at -2, Cathy is Pleased with him and at 0, he is Pleased with her. That situation smacks of DynamicSpirit setting us up (or else him just getting lucky with random number generation for initial AI Attitudes), setting us up for a potential "give away" of Ivory. So, moreso than any other AI, I fear Ragnar "wanting" a Resource from other AIs, since he has that Ivory that is just "hanging there" and waiting for him to become Friendly towards another AI.


So, yes, I agree, if I were doing the gift just to get positive Diplo modifiers, it wouldn't be necessary, but it's purpose is mostly to keep Ivory out of the hands of the other AIs. Even if Ivory wasn't the FIRST trade, Ragnar could easily get up to Friendly with Cathy, for example, if they first traded a DIFFERENT Resource with each other and got the +2 Diplo modifier for having traded Resources around for a number of years. As soon as he is Friendly with another AI, we'll have two sets of War Elephants to worry about, instead of just one set.

If we had known Vicky would still only have archers, we probably could have rushed her As soon as we find a metal source, of course.

Haha, yeah, an early rush could certainly have worked. Of course, that Copper was frustratingly-placed. Actually, come to think of it, I haven't looked around the map for a source of Horses... goes to check...

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I so far 3 sources of Horse on the map... one by the two Dyes (and no apparent Food Resources) on the island to the south of Marble City, but I admit that we haven't fully explored that area yet.

Once we get a second Trireme out (which won't happen until after we complete The Pyramids i.e. won't happen until after this turnset), we should be able to afford to send a boat to explore that area.

There's also a Horse Resource on the island to the east of the eastern 2-Clam + 1-Plains-Hills island... and it has no Food unless we use one of the 2 Clams from the 2-Clam + 1-Plains-Hills island.

The third source is Ragnar's, which is next to a City that appears to be located to the SE of his other two Cities, or, more accurately, when I look at where his capital must be (using the Culture map), his Horse City appears to be directly due south of his capital. His capital APPEARS to be land-locked, but the Coast could also just cut in and give him less land... I won't know for sure until I explore a bit more of his lands.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

AI in BTS will never break an OB agreement once it's set up, unless it's by demand to stop trading (although AIs never ask other AIs for that) or by declaration of war.

Okay, so we can still choose to be selective about our Open Borders agreements.

I see them being broken for soured relations all of the time, but most of my gaming is XOTM games, so I admit that I play more Vanilla + Warlords combined than I do BtS games these days, thus I bow to your superior knowledge on the subject.

Thus, I guess it's still a worthwhile topic to discuss, since I'll need to know soon: who do you want to have Open Borders with prior to switching into Confucianism?

And, if the answer is "it depends upon certain factors," then please tell me what those factors might be, so that I can get you the relevant info.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Turn 127, 825 BC:
We have grown back to Size 6 in Paris and have hired an Engineer.

We have whipped a Granary in Marble City.


Here's a view of Ragnar's Horse and his recently (hehehe) Pillaged Fish Resource. Boy, am I ever having way too much fun with our early-game Privateer!



Ragnar has met Victoria and he does not like her. Victoria is now his Worst Enemy. This situation puts us in a dilemma: should we Close Borders with Victoria? I mean, it's one thing not to court positive Diplo modifiers, but do we really want to court negative ones, especially with an Aggressive Civ like the Vikings? I have lost Warrior-defended Cities to their Amphibious Assaults before.



No other AI is currently trading with Victoria, so we'll help to keep her technologically backwards if we Close Borders with her. On the other hand, having Open Borders with the other AIs probably won't make a difference in terms of their Tech Rates (just in terms of ours), since each of the other 4 AIs that we know have 2 Open Borders agreements with 2 other AIs.



Thus, I am very tempted to Close Borders with Victoria.


Also, we just connected our Pig Resource and have the opportunity to scoop-up a Sheep from Cathy. I suggest that we go for it. At worst, we trade 1 junky Health Resource for another junky Health Resource. At best, we get Pig + Sheep, since as long as Willem doesn't get a Fish Resource, we should continue to get a Pig Resource out of him. I had "Willem" aka Joao in our test game, cancel that deal with me a few times during my test runs, but so far in the real game Willem has kept his end of the bargain. I don't see any real reason not to make the trade (it's not like +1 Health really does much for an AI, which would be the only reason that I can think of not to do it, other than to possibly trade the Pig to someone else, but nothing else is currently being offered on the Resource bargaining table).

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I'm going to upload the game shortly. I have been taking Demographics screenshots. If anyone wants to take a look at them, please send me a Private Message and I will email them to you. I don't currently have sufficient web space to store them anywhere, thanks to the newly-made screenshots taking up more of my already limited web space.


Other points of interest: our Galley has "rounded the bend" in the east and is going to start heading back to our area. The Barb Galley will hopefully just stay out there. If it stays alive, great, as that means that it won't die and have a new one respawn in its place elsewhere.


We'll also need to agree upon what to do about our Tech path soon. I'm guessing that we'll just stick with Math and will soon (within a couple of turns) switch to 100% Research on that tech. However, someone may want to advocate trying to get Math in Trade, which might even mean doing something like staying at 0% for now, seeing if we can get Alphabet in trade, and if we can, then reassessing our options.

For example, if we get Alphabet, we could start on Currency without Math's 20% bonus to Research, just hoping that getting Currency early for the additional Trade Routes will make up for this fact.

If we get Alphabet AND get Iron Working, then we could also just start work on Compass until we get Math in trade, at which point we could switch to Currency. In this case, we could even just stay at 0% Research while teching Compass, so that Currency can be learned as soon as possible after learning both Alphabet and Math.


Also, if we just stay at 0% Research until Willem knows Alphabet, then, if he decides not to trade it to us, we can choose to self-tech Alphabet at 100% Research, getting a minor Flask bonus for 1 AI already knowing the tech.


So, there are several options there, but staying at 0% Science Rate for a while seems to give us the most flexibility.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Here is your Session Turn Log from T115, 1125 BC to T127, 825 BC (as well as a link to the latest saved game on the server):

Spoiler :

Turn 115, 1125 BC: Pig Mmm Fish has been founded.
Turn 115, 1125 BC: Catherine adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 115, 1125 BC: Isabella adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 116, 1100 BC: The borders of Gold have expanded!

Turn 121, 975 BC: The borders of Stone have expanded!

Turn 123, 925 BC: The borders of Marble have expanded!

Turn 124, 900 BC: Confucianism has been founded in Marble!
Turn 124, 900 BC: You have discovered Code of Laws!

Turn 125, 875 BC: Gold has become happy.
Turn 125, 875 BC: Marble can hurry Work Boat for 1? with 4? overflow and +1? for 23 turns.
Turn 125, 875 BC: Pig Mmm Fish will grow to size 3 on the next turn.
Turn 125, 875 BC: Deal Canceled: Marble to Catherine for Cow
Turn 125, 875 BC: You have trained a Trireme in Paris. Work has now begun on The Pyramids.
Turn 125, 875 BC: Confucianism has spread in Gold .
Turn 125, 875 BC: Catherine converts to Judaism!

Turn 126, 850 BC: Gold can hurry Trireme for 2? with 26? overflow and +1? for 29 turns.
Turn 126, 850 BC: Pig Mmm Fish has grown to size 3.
Turn 126, 850 BC: Paris will grow to size 6 on the next turn.
Turn 126, 850 BC: Marble will grow to size 4 on the next turn.

Turn 127, 825 BC: Paris has grown to size 6.
Turn 127, 825 BC: Marble has grown to size 4.
Turn 127, 825 BC: Catherine will trade Sheep

The latest saved game on the GOTM server: One_Short_Straw_SG013_BC0825_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Dhoomstriker]

One further thought on the Tech Trading issue before I head off to bed:
What will we trade to Willem if he will give us Alphabet?

Metal Casting? I wouldn't mind him building Forges for us to capture. Triremes would only really help him against Barb Galleys (although he'd be one step away from Machinery and might just choose to self-tech it).

Code of Laws? If yes, we should almost aim to start self-teching Math soon, so that we can guaranteed having both Alphabet and Math and Code of Laws before he does... otherwise, he might beat us to the Philosophy Lightbulb.

Actually, maybe we DO NOT CARE if he beats us? I mean, one more Religion in the hands of the AIs will only help to cause strife amongst them, instead of harmony.

Of course, if you trade Code of Laws to a single AI early on in the game, that AI is likely to build Chichen Itza. It's not a game-breaking Wonder, but it does make Amphibious Assaults that don't use Bombardment just THAT MUCH MORE annoying. Of course, he's already a Creative Civ with Stonehenge, so likely ALL of his Cities will have high Cultural defences, meaning that we will almost certainly want to land Cats or Trebs and take down his Cities' defenses when we attack him... whereas other AIs might be more ripe for Amphibious assaults, espeically if we can hit the AIs prior to them getting Lonbowmen.


Of course, that point leads to the next topic... if we have to gift Willem Meditation and Priesthood in order for him to be able to take Code of Laws in trade, then we will simply be pushing him ever closer to the dreaded Monarchy. As soon as the AIs pick up Monarchy, Feudalism (and hence Longbowmen) will not be far to follow.

I'd rather see an AI take Metal Casting and end up getting Crossbowmen via Machinery than I would see them go for Monarchy and then Feudalism by giving them Religious techs in trade. Crossbowmen are a lot easier to dislodge than Longbowmen, particularly if we're planning on getting Trebuchets via Engineering.

So, given a choice, I would trade away Metal Casting in exchange for Alphabet. Let him waste his Hammers on The Colossus.


It would be nice if someone could confirm that Alphabet is a non-Monopoly tech in BtS, but I can always double-check in a test game before playing if no one has an answer for me before then.

 

[babybluepants]

Looking good, Dhoom!

Alphabet is traded at monopoly. Willem will give it to us. 0% research until then is right. I might have put the research on Machinery maybe, but Math is fine. We really need to play the next 4t quickly, decide on the first trade, then play one more to see the full trade situation.
Edit: another option would be to part-tech Alpha and hope we can get both Alpha and IW in trade for MC. This is tricky to calculate and uncertain - not super sure that enough AI's will even have IW at this stage, though I think they probably would.

What is our galley doing all the way there? Sorry, I haven't been super thorough in following the thread, so this was probably already discussed. Edit: nvm, just read that part.

Where are we putting Moai? Stone seems like a great spot to me. We don't need to push GP from there, I would think, and it has some solid production already. In any case, we should plan this now, so we can do some whip OF soon.

What the plan with the missionary? My inclination would be to spread to Pigs or Paris before we get some other religion randomly spreading. Are we instead hoping for Confu auto-spread?

Expansion plans? There are still at least 3 sites we should be settling early (fur, copper and 2clam).

Edit:
OB - no they don't break OB in BTS. They do it all the time in Warlords.

 

[shyuhe]

I think we want religion in Pigs before Paris, as we want the pure GS more.

I think enough AI should have teched IW by now for us to get it in trade. The only issue is whether MC is enough for both alpha+IW. I don't think it is without significant investment by us on alpha.

Do we really need Moai? It's a pretty marginal wonder at best and I think the hammers would be better spent building boats or other necessary stuff. We're going to be starting our military build-up pretty soon and we'll be using almost entirely whip hammers.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Alphabet is traded at monopoly.

Good to know, thanks for confirming!

I might have put the research on Machinery maybe, but Math is fine.

I could also flip to Machinery for the next few turns. Let's estimate roughly 35 population points when we Lightbulb. That would mean 1500 + 35 * 3 = 1500 + 105 = 1605 Flasks, while Machinery is 1638 Flasks, so we do have roughly 30 Flasks that we'll probably have to self-research anyway.

At roughly 8 Flasks per turn (1 freebie plus floor(6 * 1.25 = 7.5) = 1 + 7 = 8), that's approximately 4 turns' worth of Research (4 * 8 = 32, and 32 is close enough to 30).

We really need to play the next 4t quickly, decide on the first trade, then play one more to see the full trade situation.

Of course, Willem may spend more or less than 4 turns Researching Alphabet. I wonder... if I switch Espionage targets will he spend less on Espionage and more on Research? Hmmm, it's hard to say... I'd rather not gamble and thus we should probably just keep our Espionage focused on him, rather than risk losing visibility of what he's up to (particularly for the tech that comes after Alphabet, as it will be obvious on which turn he learns Alphabet even if we can't see his Research at the time).

Edit: another option would be to part-tech Alpha and hope we can get both Alpha and IW in trade for MC. This is tricky to calculate and uncertain - not super sure that enough AI's will even have IW at this stage, though I think they probably would.

It's certainly an option. However, since we will have a monopoly on Code of Laws, we could wait until Alphabet comes in before deciding to put any research into Alphabet... Philosophy will not be at risk as long as we control Code of Laws. Also, then it would be "easier to predict" as I could try such a trade every single turn until we "get it right."

Of course, if Willem will be willing to trade Iron Working, it will mean that others will, too, and we may just prefer to get it from someone else (although which tech is the tech that we should give up, I am not certain).

Anyway, when the first AI learns Alphabet, it will definitely be a stopping point, as will likely the turn afterwards when we can trade for everyone else's techs (or the current turn, if that's how Alphabet trading works--I'm a bit hazy on the subject but the answer doesn't really matter as we won't advance play any further than we have to at that time).

Where are we putting Moai? Stone seems like a great spot to me. We don't need to push GP from there, I would think, and it has some solid production already. In any case, we should plan this now, so we can do some whip OF soon.

That's some interesting thinking. I had originally figured that we'd put it on Copper Island, but given that we won't have settled such a City for a very long time, perhaps Stone City is a reasonable alternative.

Still, it is preferable to put Moai in a City that will grow a lot, and having a Magical Fish + a Grassland Copper gives nice growth, and being able to share Stone City's second Magical Fish would make Copper City an ideal place to put Moai.

We'd be waiting to settle this City until after we're done generating our Great People, though, and at that time we might not even choose to settle such a City.

What I dislike the most about Moai in Stone City is that we'll want to work the Quarry and the Mine there, but in so doing, growth into the Coastal squares is very slow going. So, it will take a while to pay off (Moai is pretty expensive, priced at half of the cost of The Pyramids).

What the plan with the missionary? My inclination would be to spread to Pigs or Paris before we get some other religion randomly spreading. Are we instead hoping for Confu auto-spread?

My understanding was that people wanted to save the Missionary until the last minute, so that whichever City needed it but had not yet been affected by auto-spreading could get our State-Religion-to-be.

Although having a different random Religion spread would give a slight chance of failure, we'd have 100% chance of failure if we "used up" the Missionary and then ended up with a Great-Person-generation City without our State Religion in it (i.e. 100% failure in the City that doesn't get our Religion).

So, I'd rather have an 88% or so chance of success in a City that gets a different Religion spread to it.

That said, we only have 4 Cities (at most) that will try to generate Great People. 2 of them currently have our State Religion, so once the 3rd one gets it, we can simply send the Missionary there.

Expansion plans? There are still at least 3 sites we should be settling early (fur, copper and 2clam).

Fur City was the plan and we have already started on a Work Boat for it.

That said, if we feel that Representation's +3 Happiness will be sufficient to meet our Happiness needs, we can forego the Fur City. The good news is that we're building a Work Boat, so any other City that would require a Work Boat is also a valid option.

OB - no they don't break OB in BTS. They do it all the time in Warlords.

I wonder why that change was made. The way it works in Warlords is a lot more logical. I mean, you already get +1 or +2 positive Diplo for having had Open Borders for a reasonable amount of time, and if you STILL can't keep the person happy with that additional boost, then you aren't really trying and the relationship SHOULD be allowed to turn sour.

As it is, this situation makes it very hard to break up AI-AI Open Borders trading. That's another reason to try and keep the AIs out of the Resource Trading game, as they'll eventually start to get +2 with each other simply by the nature of having these relatively-Uncancellable Open Borders agreements.

The biggest threat is Ragnar getting Friendly towards anyone, at which point his Ivory will flow like water and the skies will fill with the thunder of lumbering hoofbeats of the deadly elephants and of the war drums being beaten by their riders. The skies will turn dark with the clouds of dust that they kick up and all heck will break loose amongst our fearful troops.

 

[babybluepants]

I think enough AI should have teched IW by now for us to get it in trade. The only issue is whether MC is enough for both alpha+IW. I don't think it is without significant investment by us on alpha.

Sounds right.

Do we really need Moai? It's a pretty marginal wonder at best and I think the hammers would be better spent building boats or other necessary stuff. We're going to be starting our military build-up pretty soon and we'll be using almost entirely whip hammers.

Stone with Moai and forge at full pop is about 17-18hpt, which isn't bad at all, especially for a city with limited re-growth past pop 4 or so. With a GA that gets a significant boost, too. I think it's still good to have one city with solid base hammers (and associated solid commerce).

Of course, Willem may spend more or less than 4 turns Researching Alphabet. I wonder... if I switch Espionage targets will he spend less on Espionage and more on Research? Hmmm, it's hard to say...

We should just keep ep on Willem.

My understanding was that people wanted to save the Missionary until the last minute, so that whichever City needed it but had not yet been affected by auto-spreading could get our State-Religion-to-be.

Sure.

I wonder why that change was made. The way it works in Warlords is a lot more logical. I mean, you already get +1 or +2 positive Diplo for having had Open Borders for a reasonable amount of time, and if you STILL can't keep the person happy with that additional boost, then you aren't really trying and the relationship SHOULD be allowed to turn sour.

Don't know exactly why the change was made, but I like the BTS one better. The difference in trade route income is very significant, and it's very difficult to keep OB in Warlords long-term without shared religion - which is a crapshoot in most games.

I could also flip to Machinery for the next few turns. Let's estimate roughly 35 population points when we Lightbulb. That would mean 1500 + 35 * 3 = 1500 + 105 = 1605 Flasks, while Machinery is 1638 Flasks, so we do have roughly 30 Flasks that we'll probably have to self-research anyway.

At roughly 8 Flasks per turn (1 freebie plus floor(6 * 1.25 = 7.5) = 1 + 7 = 8), that's approximately 4 turns' worth of Research (4 * 8 = 32, and 32 is close enough to 30).

That's pretty close. If we're planning on a bulb, let's not. Once we get IW, we can pass beakers into Compass if we're waiting on something. For now, I guess Math is the best option. Some beakers invested in it might give us a better trade deal later, at least.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I think we want religion in Pigs before Paris, as we want the pure GS more.

Makes sense.

I think that it's worth holding off on deciding and hoping for auto-spread; at least until a lack of auto-spread forces us to decide at the last moment, but we can definitely put a priority on Pig City over Paris.

The only case that might cause an issue is if Pig City remains Religionless and Paris gets a random, non-Confucian Religion spreading to it. In that case, we may want to consider possibly just holding off for a while after we should have technically started hiring Specialists in Pig City, growing Pig City a bit more, and then finally triggering the Missionary in Pig City only if auto-spread completely failed us, with the thinking that if auto-spread does work in our favour, then Paris can use the Missionary.

Since we are committing to growing Pig City to Size 7, then we effectively have a leeway of 3 extra turns, since it will take us 3 extra turns to grow to Size 8. As long as the order of our Great People won't get messed up, we'll actually generate more Great People Points over an identical period of time by growing to Size 8 in Pig City, since we'll be able to hire 6 Scientists for 17 turns, which gives us more GPP than hiring 5 Scientists for the missing 3 turns would have given us [(1 * 17) > (5 * 3)].

The only issue is whether MC is enough for both alpha+IW. I don't think it is without significant investment by us on alpha.

Okay, that sounds like something worth testing before playing.

Do we really need Moai? It's a pretty marginal wonder at best and I think the hammers would be better spent building boats or other necessary stuff. We're going to be starting our military build-up pretty soon and we'll be using almost entirely whip hammers.

As I mentioned, Moai's cost is half of that of The Pyramids:
375 Hammers (while The Pyramids cost 2 * 375 = 750 Hammers)

It can be a very useful National Wonder in the right circumstances, especially for a game played in the long-term, like a Diplo or Space game.

Assuming that we were to build it in a City that did not have a Forge, it would cost us roughly 188 Hammers, which equals 2.5 Galleys and/or Triremes (since Galleys and Triremes each cost 75 Hammers, while 75 * 2.5 = 187.5 and 375 / 2 (for Stone) = 187.5).

So, it has potential. Since it does take a while to pay off, though, I would strongly consider building Copper City as our 6th City if we wanted to build this National Wonder. We'd still need to build a Granary and a Lighthouse, but then we would finally have access to a Strategic Resource. Since the hope is to get Iron Working soon, I would settle this City to the NW of the Copper, so that it has access to both of the Magical Pigs (one being used by Stone City), the Grassland Copper square, and plenty of Coastal squares.

The good part about Stone City is that it can continue to work its Stone Quarry and its GH Mine without the Fish, while stagnating at whatever City Size it is at by working Coast squares.


Whip overflow from a Granary and a Lighthouse in Copper City would be the basis for starting Moai, then later-whipped Military Units (say, after we switch into Police State) would allow us to finish it off. The two Magical Fish would give it the ability to regrow quickly to its population cap, allowing us to actually make use of the Wonder within a reasonable payback-timeframe.


But, that's only if you're okay to give up Fur City as our 6th City. We'll be fine without Fur City's Happiness in terms of our Great Person Generation plan, so we don't have an immediate need for the Happiness from the Fur. Thus, making Copper City our 6th City with the plan of putting Moai there will make for a much stronger City than Fur City. Note that other than the Happiness, Fur City was mostly only going to be a Commerce City anyway, which is something that we won't need nearly as much as a Hammer-based City.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Stone with Moai and forge at full pop is about 17-18hpt, which isn't bad at all, especially for a city with limited re-growth past pop 4 or so. With a GA that gets a significant boost, too. I think it's still good to have one city with solid base hammers (and associated solid commerce).

My biggest concern with putting Moai Statues in Stone City is that it will take quite a while to pay itself off, let alone start turning a profit.

With us working a Magical Fish, a GH Stone Quarry, and a GH Mine, we only make +4 Food per turn. If we figure that we'll have to do some whipping in order to complete Moai, then it will take quite a while for us to grow the population at that rate.

One could stop working the Stone and the GH Mine, but it seems kind of silly to do so, even just temporarily, when there are so few production squares across our empire.


When you think about it, if we don't build Moai in Stone City, then Stone City doesn't really even to grow past Size 3 and can safely whip down to that Size anytime that it grows larger.

We should just keep ep on Willem.

Roger that.

That's pretty close. If we're planning on a bulb, let's not. Once we get IW, we can pass beakers into Compass if we're waiting on something. For now, I guess Math is the best option. Some beakers invested in it might give us a better trade deal later, at least.

An alternative would be to self-tech Hunting, to avoid WFYABTA issues. However, I'm pretty sure that we had the WFYABTA discussion earlier and people seemed to not be worried about it. Besides, if we're considering settling elsewhere than Fur City, we might not even want Hunting at all.

So, yeah, Math isn't ideal but I don't see a better alternative.

On the plus side, if the AIs are slow in researching Math, we can consider self-teching Math and giving Math away in trade for Iron Working. We really WANT the AIs to have Math, so that they can pick up Construction and Calendar for us. Or... do we? I mean, maybe the AIs building Catapults is not such a hot idea? Oh well, they'll get Math and its follow-up techs eventually... I guess what matters most is "will they get these techs in time for us to benefit as well, or only just in time to help them in fighting us?"

I'd rather give away Math for Iron Working than I would Alphabet.

That said, if anyone researches Monarchy, we are going to be gifting them Alphabet immediately (getting something else in trade will also work, but we don't want to take Monarchy ourselves, while gifting Alphabet is better than letting the AIs make the trade). Otherwise, on the following turn, the AI with Monarchy and without Alphabet will get Alphabet anyway and another AI with Alphabet will get Monarchy. That's the trouble with having 2 equally-priced not-considered-to-be-Monopoly techs: they can get exchanged before you can blink.

 

[shyuhe]

We don't need to move the missionary any time soon -- we only need to move him during our 4 turn anarchy period. And 4 turns is more than enough to move him anywhere in our empire so let's wait and see what auto-spread we get.

I'd prefer to skip hunting if possible so that we can garrison cities with warriors while building maces.

I'd prefer to not self-tech math but I think it's a good beaker dump. It'll make an alpha--math trade more likely to happen for us.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

We don't need to move the missionary any time soon -- we only need to move him during our 4 turn anarchy period. And 4 turns is more than enough to move him anywhere in our empire so let's wait and see what auto-spread we get.

An excellent point! Now I feel less pressure to get that Missionary in place while also juggling Settler 6, 2 Workers, and a Barb Galley tail.


I wonder, can Religion auto-spread during a period of Anarchy?


Also, it might only be a 3-turn period of Anarchy, if I have my way, since I'd like to convert to Confucianism as soon Gold City experiences any Unhappiness.

I'd prefer to skip hunting if possible so that we can garrison cities with warriors while building maces.

Hmmm, this statement sounds like a strong endorsement to settle somewhere other than Fur City (since Fur City would require us to get Hunting).

Since you mention Maces and our only currently-known source of Metals comes from Copper Island, are you indirectly voting to settle City 6 on Copper Island?

If Iron doesn't appear within our borders, we'll have to settle there eventually, so if we have a good chance of needing to settle there eventually, I'd rather do so sooner than later and thus be able to justify putting Moai there.

Of course, before deciding upon Lighthouse or Granary first, we could probably run some tests, but if we assume that we'll work the Magical Fish plus the Grassland Copper, then Granary-first is almost certainly going to be the correct choice. Lighthouse-first would apply more if we were planning on temporarily stealing Stone City's Magical Fish while whipping out Copper City's first couple of buildings.



Open Borders Issue
As for Open Borders, my current thinking is:

- Cancel Open Borders with Vicky, so as not to anger Rangar. Besides, Vicky hasn't even received a Religion yet. She won't be angry at us and due to not having a Religion will eventually allow us to re-open the borders later, should we choose to do so. Even if she does pick up a Religion, we'll have fair warning and plenty of time to choose to re-Open Borders at that time

- Don't Open Borders with Cathy, so as not to anger Isabella and so as not to feed The Great Lighthouse any more than the other AIs will already do

- Open Borders with Willem, since he will already be getting sufficient Foreign Trade Routes from Cathy and Ragnar to prevent him from gaining any additional benefit by Opening Borders with us

- Leave Borders Open with Isabella and Ragnar, since they, too, are not benefiting any more than they would if we Closed Borders with them, while we also won't be angering anyone by keeping Borders Open with them

 

[babybluepants]

Ducks seem to be definitely axe/sword rushing. We'll get to compare approaches, I guess.

BTW, I would also love to delete those arrows in the save. Anyone know how?

Hunting: Can't say super crazy about the fur city, even though it might just help with all the whip anger. Anyway, I don't object to settling it, but I think after copper. Do we need that many more warriors? I think we can also just pick up Archery in a trade later, since we don't really care about WFYABTA.

OB: do we need to close with Vicky? Why do we care about angering Ragnar? At worst it'll be -1 for refusing a demand, and it's not like he'll even be around for too long.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

BTW, I would also love to delete those arrows in the save. Anyone know how?

I'm assuming that it has to do with the "Strategy Layer" and drawing lines, but I'm not really sure how to use that functionality... I've only ever heard it talked about, so, yes, suggestions on this subject would be welcomed.

So, if someone knows how to erase "lines" (which is probably what the arrows are made-up out of), then please share how.

Hunting: Can't say super crazy about the fur city, even though it might just help with all the whip anger. Anyway, I don't object to settling it, but I think after copper. Do we need that many more warriors? I think we can also just pick up Archery in a trade later, since we don't really care about WFYABTA.

Okay, if we're willing to wait on Archery, then we might as well wait on getting Hunting (via trade).
EDIT: Just to clarify, I have no intentions of self-teching Hunting... it was just an idea that I threw out there and immediately rejected as not being a good choice.

As for how many Warriors... we'll have at least 6 Cities, so at least 6 of them. In addition, we may or may not want to garrison future Cities that we capture or build, again using Warriors where possible. We may or may not want to permanently station additional Warriors at "outpost locations," such as the one currently on Copper Island and the one on Fur Island.

Archers aren't extremely expensive. However, for the cost of 3 Archers, we could have 5 Warriors plus 1 Hammer (3 * 37 = 111; 5 * 22 = 110). In a production-lacking empire, it may make a minor difference.

OB: do we need to close with Vicky? Why do we care about angering Ragnar? At worst it'll be -1 for refusing a demand, and it's not like he'll even be around for too long.

Well, think of it this way: we are currently extremely vulnerable. If we are attacked and a land-based force lands, we can whip... Warriors. "Ooouuuuhhh, scary," chuckles Ragnar.

Ragnar is almost certain to perform a Sneak Attack if we refuse a demand of his (80% chance--he's near the top of the Bastards Chart). I do not know if this point applies to a "Stop Trading with my Worst Enemy" demand, but if someone knows for certain, we can make a more-informed decision. Without knowing for sure, I would be very wary about refusing a demand from him, the "king of amphibious attacks." Don't forget that he essentially gets Circumnavigation for free from his Unique Building, so we'll also have less advance-warning of any of his impending attacks.

Also, the angrier that he gets with us, the more likely he will be to plan a war against us... yes, it's mostly random-number generated, but the odds of him rolling a successful random number increase as his feelings towards us begin to sour.

Since we currently don't need Vicky's Trade Routes and since Vicky will be amenable to Re-Opening Borders in the future after we switch into Confucianism (seeing as how she doesn't currently have a State Religion), we won't lose anything by Closing Borders with her. An AI will not get upset at you if you choose to Close Borders--they'll only get upset if you agreed to Close Borders because the AI that treats THEM as a Worst Enemy asked you to do so, regardless of who the target AI believes is their OWN Worst Enemy.

She'll just need some "time" (probably roughly 15 turns) before she'll be willing to Open Borders again, which was a mechanic that was presumably put in place to avoid potentially exploitative behaviour such as Opening Borders and scouting an AI's lands, only to Close Borders at the end of the turn so that the AI could not do the same to you, then repeating the same thing on the following turn but in a different part of the AI's empire. That, and to avoid massive abuse of "teleporting" your units around, as well as probably all sorts of other creative exploits that someone could dream up.

Finally, since we're currently improving her Research rate via Open Borders while we won't be doing so by having Opening Borders with any other AI (except possibly Cathy with her Great Lighthouse), we'll actually slow Vicky's tech pace down if we Close Borders with Vicky.


You asked me to refuse demands as your default preferred option. I'd rather not refuse a demand from Ragnar. Pre-empting any such request from Ragnar seems to be a reasonable compromise between the two, which would mean Closing Borders with his Worst Enemy (in this case, it is Vicky).

 

[mdy]

I agree with putting our beakers into machinery at least temporairily.

I don't think making an alphabet for COL trade would be a problem. We don't need to found taoism-and it could actually be counterproductive if it spreads to one of our GP farms before Confunicism. I don't think the Chicken Iza is a problem either. At worst we spend one more turn bombarding the defences of his capital. If he invested those hammers in expnsion/units instead it would delay us for longer.

I also agree that we shouldn't risk using the missionary yet, though if we have to choose between Confunicism in the capital and pigs, we clearly have to choose pigs.

For Maori to be useful in coper we would have to build at a minimum granary+lighthouse+Maori+barracks. With only 1 production tile I can't see how we can get all this built before we are ready to go to war as we will spend a lot of the intervening time in CS. In the circumstances, if we built this city I think whipping units here would probably be more efficient than Maori.

Furs would effectively give us +1whip in every city, and is a slightly stronger commerce site during our research phase so I still think we should build this city first, and copper later (if at all).