Mongol Scenario way different after June Patch

[Silverfuturist]

Mongol Scenario Deity, one of my favorite things about Civ V - a good challenge requiring planning, empire management, Keshik tactics, so forth. It also feels like a "story" and the map is fun.

With the new patch... the cities fall easily compared to the last few patches. The Keshiks get promotions quickly, by turn 30 I had double-shooting Keshiks. However, I am going to start the scenario over again because I hit a happiness wall very quickly. In previous patches I didn't raze cities with a unique resource and I puppeted Western Xia to get 2 extra horses (to turn into Keshiks.) With this patch I went over -10 very quickly and am now operating at -20, soon to be -30. Maybe I will have to raze every city that isn't a capital, and avoid taking any CS because the happy hits are so brutal. The cities fall so easily now, less Keshiks are needed and those Keshiks become double-powered faster, that might work.

But the immersion is gone, razing cities that provide economic benefits makes no sense to me and having to become a mass murder is not fun... unless there is some other way, maybe I will figure it out. I don't see why I just can't give the people money to make them happy, personally I think boatloads of cash provide more happiness than marble or whales... yea pour some whale blubber on me that will make me happy but keep your stinkin' money!


...anyhow it is a day later and I won on turn 97, it was tight. Putting a specialist in a workshop to rush Notre Dame was essential, in the previous patches I could never get Circus Maximus because every time I have to raze, the project had to start over because it thought I need another colosium.

Japan was still the biggest challenge, I got rifles later in the game than pre-patch and I waited for both of them before amphibious invasion. Having the armory was very important, so my units could get the amphibious promotion. I bought some caravels to escort the rifles, blocking Japan's triremes. The invasion went quickly especially with a three 3-ranged double shot indirect fire Keshiks to help.

The main Keshik force took Jin, China, Persia (they gave me 3 cities for peace), India, Persia (took capital), Arabia, Byzantine, Russian capital. A second Keshik force (3 Keshiks/1 horse) I formed after Persia fell, they took all Russian cities except capital while the main force took Arabia/Byzantine. Perhaps just keep 1 Keshik force and use the extra funds to start on Japan... one Keshik army with all the promotions can take every land Civ with time to spare if used efficiently.

Maybe next time... sign a few RAs be able to invade Japan much earlier?

 

[DaveMcW]

I don't see why I just can't give the people money to make them happy, personally I think boatloads of cash provide more happiness than marble or whales...

Annex and buy a courthouse and happiness buildings.

 

[Raiki]

But the immersion is gone, razing cities that provide economic benefits makes no sense to me and having to become a mass murder is not fun...

But you're the Mongols...

You do know who the Mongols were right?

He came to power by uniting many of the nomadic tribes of northeast Asia. After founding the Mongol Empire and being proclaimed "Genghis Khan", he started the Mongol invasions that would result in the conquest of most of Eurasia. These included raids or invasions of the Kara-Khitan Khanate, Caucasus, Khwarezmid Empire, Western Xia and Jin dynasties. These campaigns were often accompanied by wholesale massacres of the civilian populations – especially in Khwarezmia. By the end of his life, the Mongol Empire occupied a substantial portion of Central Asia and China.

I haven't played the scenario yet, but from everything I've heard, it's recreating those exact events. So yeah, raze, pillage, chew bubble gum.


~R~

 

[Ravellion]

really? that's surprising to me. The buffs to honor should've helped. Do you have garrisons and the professional army policy? barbarian hunts and garrisons giving culture, should make it easier to gain policies. after completing honor, go for organized religion or meritocracy.

 

[Silverfuturist]

I do know who the Mongols were, but this is Firaxis and I don't think a genocide game is what they had in mind, it is not what I have in mind... while they are at it, why not create a realistic WW2 scenario for the Germans, yea that would go over well!

DaveMcW's suggestion helps, but I am still razing more cities than I would like... have to see if the slower tech rate will be a big deal later in the game, gotta go now time to conquor, I mean raze to the ground some Persian cities.

Korea allied China, I let Korea take one of my cities, that helped with happiness a bit... yea an integral part of my strategy is giving my opponent an opening to take one of my cities so I could be happier...

 

[GlobularFoody]

I just played the scenario and found the same thing, happiness runs out very quickly. I had four keshiks with double shot, + 1 range, and indirect fire and the cities were dropping in almost one turn. I ended up having to burn down all my cities as well, there was just no other way to generate happiness. I didn't win but I think I could have if I had razed my cities faster (the horseman I was using to take cities would die attacking if happiness was -10), and it was the first time I had really played this scenario.

 

[Putmalk]

I do know who the Mongols were, but this is Firaxis and I don't think a genocide game is what they had in mind, it is not what I have in mind... while they are at it, why not create a realistic WW2 scenario for the Germans, yea that would go over well!

I have a framework for a scenario like that, what is wrong with that? Leave out the Holocaust and it's just another conquering scenario.

 

[the Intricacy]

...Leave out the Holocaust...

riiiiiiight... starting off a sentence with that is just never going to work out for you. x2 if you a non-Jew, too.

 

[Glassmage]

go Honor right side all the way to the bottom policy, annex cities with luxuries after the anarchy, then buy courthouses, colosseums, and walls and such. RAZE the rest, unless you need strategic resources.... which most likely you won't.

 

[Ravellion]

Note: with the lower culture costs per policy for the first few policies, professional army can be picked right from the start. Which mean you can have 4 instead of 3 Keshiks at the start. That really helps in your initial assault on Beijing.

 

[Bob_]

Post Patch the scenario is really hard! I started on emperor and won by turn 95, where I was constantly negative in terms of gold and happiness. Cathys knights killed 3 of my double, indirect shot keshik with range and heal.... It has (only) been the second time I played the scenario but I think I am a decent player and given how close it was I cannot even imagine to win on deity. The final enemies tech like hell, have much more units and you have to take out 2 more civs!! Damn, how did you guys do that??

I noticed that taking out city states is giving individual bonusses. Took out Xi-hua and got 2 horses and Georgia gave me a social policy. What do the rest give??

 

[iggymnrr]

I noticed that taking out city states is giving individual bonusses. Took out Xi-hua and got 2 horses and Georgia gave me a social policy. What do the rest give??

Of the 4 military CSes, 2 give 2 horsemen, 1 gives 2 xbows and the other gives 2 pikes. I think you can tell the 2 horsie CSes by seeing they have horse.

 

[pontias]

I thought the honor buff was going to make it easier. looking forward to trying.

 

[Waywocket]

I've definitely found this easier since the patch. The key to remember is not to worry too much about happiness. I don't believe it's actually possible to keep your happiness positive past turn three, but once you hit -20 there are no further penalties - and the rebels that constantly spawn past -20 are a good source of gold and culture thanks to the buffed honour tree. Just make sure you don't let any pillage your horses as that could lead to a really bad day

Don't raze any cities - they're worth keeping for the money. Don't build any happiness buildings - going from -47 to -45 isn't going to have much of an effect .

Past about turn 20 money is irrelevant - you'll have more than you can spend; the only thing stopping you pumping out Keshiks without end is the number of horses available. Start with a Heroic Epic - you'll want to get the first few turns of hammers in before happiness hits -10 by the time you take your 3rd or 4th city, and even so you won't have it completed for a good chunk of the game.

So far I've only gone up to immortal with this strategy, but my last game ended with a comfortable victory by about turn 85 (and about 95 unhappiness, and that was with the happiness policy in the Liberty tree). I might try deity this weekend and see how much tougher it gets; I'm kind of expecting that the AI will have so many units that taking them out with time to capture every city within the time limit is going to require a few attempts, but I definitely think it's possible.

 

[nokmirt]

It is better to take a city, leave it as a puppet until resistance has ended, then annex and buy a courthouse. Using this system, I have had very very few happiness issues with the new patch.

 

[Mods]

(the horseman I was using to take cities would die attacking if happiness was -10),

Just a trick: a city with 1 hp will never kill your unit trying to take the city. no matter what, the unit attacking will always win (even with 1 hp, lower strength then the city,...)

 

[JDR]

It is better to take a city, leave it as a puppet until resistance has ended, then annex and buy a courthouse. Using this system, I have had very very few happiness issues with the new patch.

If you're trying to win on Diety, in my experience, you quickly get to the point where this will not work. You need to be taking a city every 2-3 turns for the majority of the game. Doesn't take long to get over 20 and short of waiting, there is no way back under.

I just won on Diety using Waywocket's strategy. Screw happiness, just puppet everything. The only cities I annexed were a couple near the front in the late game, so I could buy a few rifles and not have to run them half way around the globe.

It's pretty funny seeing your unhappiness over -100. On the plus side I got my barbarian ransom achievement when 5-6 riflemen spawned in Japan in the late game.

 

[Waywocket]

So far I've only gone up to immortal with this strategy, but my last game ended with a comfortable victory by about turn 85 (and about 95 unhappiness, and that was with the happiness policy in the Liberty tree). I might try deity this weekend and see how much tougher it gets; I'm kind of expecting that the AI will have so many units that taking them out with time to capture every city within the time limit is going to require a few attempts, but I definitely think it's possible.

Well, it worked. Just won on deity on turn 99 (it was touch and go for a while there). By the time I got to Arabia they must have had a unit on almost every hex they owned; the same for Byzantium but that's less of a deal since they own so few. Russia was pretty quiet in comparison.

Actually, I did relax my normal 'no-reloads' policy, particularly when I carelessly failed to prevent barbarians from pillaging one of my pastures. I don't feel too cheesy since that's the first time I've played on deity; a more careful player could have done it without.

One thing I did use, and probably would have lost without, is 'offensive' road building - before declaring war on India I built roads through the mountain passes which changed taking India from 'basically impossible in the time available' to 'not too much of a problem' since I could round-robin several keshiks per turn attacking through the mountains, rather than having to move them all within firing range of the city.

 

[magnus333]

I just played 2 quick rounds on Deity.

The first game I immediately went into the Piety tree for the happiness from monuments. I beelined the two nearby cultural CS for 2 policies as well. I annexed quite a few cities and set to them avoid growth/focus production and built monument/temple/walls. After that I took liberty to meritocracy and then representation.
There is an initial unhappiness hit around -35 while expanding but I was able to get it under control and hover around 0 until turn 70 when I quit. I had just taken India, all of China and was about to take Japan. No way I could have won but I did have 1 policy short of 3 full trees when I quit.
I think that strategy will work for Emperor and below quite well. There will always be an initial negative during the early push but after that I think you can maintain happiness, policy acquisition and still pick off 5-6 civs in 100 turns.

On Deity however, the only strategy is to completely ignore happiness. I did this in my second round and I ended up losing on turn 99 by only one single attack! The last Byzantium city had only 8 HP remaining and my rifleman was set to do 6. Unfortunately I simply couldn't land one additional attack that turn with any of my 25+ units within 10 tiles. I'm sure I could load a turn before and move 1 unit differently and come out with an easy win.

It was actually an interesting experience as I had barbarians popping up all over my empire all game long from revolt. This was a lot more involved than my old Deity games, as various sources of iron and horses were pillaged which was an absolute nightmare to deal with! Around turn 93, seven revolting rifleman popped up right in the middle of my advance! They took out about 4 of my units which was roughly 75-90% of my losses up until turn 93. I peaked at -200 happiness.

In any event, the scenario is very doable. In my second game I completed Honor, then took the right side of Commerce (not the last one though). Right before the end I opened Autocracy which jumped my gold per turn from 150ish to 480! With some refinement I think a sub 90-turn Deity game would be possible.

 

[Misterboy]

On Deity however, the only strategy is to completely ignore happiness.

Really? You're completely convinced of this? You don't see any other viable strategy?

I don't doubt you, I just would like to think someone could figure out some method. Anyone want to contradict this statement?

That Mongol Scenario Diety achievement is looming over me, but I don't know if I have it in me to battle it out!