Game diary: Deity, summoning the Infernals early (FfH2 with Tholal's mod)

Horatius · Jul 18, 2011

There's still a few game diaries that I want to do.

This time we'll do a quick game with the Infernals. We're in the mood for this.

Here's who is going to summon them:

Spoiler :

Hannah, the brat, is usually the best for a quick summoning.

We are playing a standard pangaea map on normal speed again.
No Acheron.
The rest is standard.

Here is the start:

Spoiler :

A good enough start for our goal that absolutely anybody can try.

You never won a game on deity? Well, just try this.

So, first question: where to settle?
Seems easy enough. There's only one place where we can settle and get three quick pirate ports, one fish, an extra hammer for our city and extra protection.

Still, settling on the incense is not to be disregarded with this strategy. We are going to build a temple and research philosophy early, so if we settle there we will get one more happy citizen after the mentioned technology. Sometimes it helps to remember this when doing this rushing strategy since one is not going to work the incense.

In this situation, it seems clearly best to settle there:

Spoiler :

We destroy a barrow and get some money from a hut.
Meanwhile, we will go towards fishing and build warriors.

Calbrenar · Jul 18, 2011

Looking forward to this!

Horatius · Jul 19, 2011

- and we start:

Our scout gambles a little and destroys some ruins close by. We do not awaken what lies beneath:

Spoiler :

We are not strong enough for early terrors...

It is realized that we definitely spawned in a corner of the map:

Spoiler :

That is most welcomed for this strategy.

Our border pops revealing another hut close by in the south and we get some more money.

We scout some more, time passes and soon we are starting to build the first work boat:

Spoiler :

We defend our three hammer tile with some warriors (to not lose turns in production) and go mysticism of course:

Spoiler :

We also meet some of our opposition. Beeri can be the biggest problem if he is allowed to get too big and summon the mercurians.

The Sidar start a early war with the Hippus:

Spoiler :

We have nothing to do with that but we are pleased.

Pirate coves are being worked.
One more workboat for the fish and quick settlers:

Spoiler :

We get lucky and gain a few turns in the research:

Spoiler :

We switch to GodKing and Pacifism and start a temple immediately then:

Spoiler :

The Sidar and the Hippus make peace for a while but they quickly restart their confrontations - this is what we like.

The temple is completed, we run the priest, and finish the work boat. There is no difference in the number of turns if we start the settler now or after the work boat:

Spoiler :

As it is obvious, we will just beeline towards the infernal pact if nobody gives us trouble.

The settler comes out and we will start a work boat for it:

Spoiler :

I'm going to bet on four cities, but you can do it with just two. I'll just be greedy

.

There is a place near where once were the barbarian lairs that is good for a city that may eventually work three more pirate ports. But it may only work three after a border pop and that will take time.
You can probably make it work out; I'm not sure what is mathematically best and I'm not that picky.

I will prefer to settle my first couple of cities inside my capitals borders to have less maintenance. Also, this way they will be able to trade among themselves.
After fishing, cities can trade without roads if culture creates an imaginary road connecting the cities along the coast (hopefully I'm being clear if you didn't know this).

More turns pass and we build another settler.
Btw, we had gained a few turns in research earlier but soon we have to pay for that:

Spoiler :

Everything balances out.

We continue to have no pressure from anybody. It's going to be a piece of cake.
Bears are separating me and Beeri.

Our prophet comes alive to show that salvation is in corruption of the spirit and we build a third city:

Spoiler :

Needless to say,we build another work boat and settler.

Our spirits will be corrupted in five:

Spoiler :

Our savant will spread the religion to our last city. Since the holy city is close by, the other cities will be infected shortly.
We let our capital grow to six immediately, actually.

Spoiler :

It doesn't take long for humans to be influenced by the addictive taste of evil :evil:

:

Spoiler :

Already everybody has given up their souls.
Hyborem is jumping up and down in hell :devil:

.

Soon, the everyday torture and pleasure will begin... :whipped:

While the Elder Council is being built in the surrounding cities our capital properly entertains itself by building the prophecy of ragnarok and, indeed, the black end rises and emerges into our sight:

Spoiler :

Hell is coming, Hell is coming, Hell is coming! :run:

Actually - no.
We are generating more than 90 beakers and we're not suffering pressure from anybody (well, except from the everyday whip):
so, we are going to research a few more technologies as offerings for our incoming torturer.

Horatius · Jul 20, 2011

- last time instead of summoning the infernal right away,we decided to research a few more technologies, since no one is putting any pressure on us.

The Hippus are still at war with the Sidar, and Beeri, to our right, has Flauros as his worst enemy.

We tech towards education and actually get some happiness resources by trading with Flauros. We will try to get another great person:

Spoiler :

We decide to get mining as well and then priesthood.
Meanwhile a great scientist pops and we bulb alteration. We decided to do this to put the infernal closer to sorcery. It'll also be one more technology that they can use for trade.

Spoiler :

The cities are building mages guilds because there is nothing else to do. We are just focusing on commerce and scientists.

We would have liked to spread AV throughout the world, but, unfortunately, we were not able to open borders with anyone.

We finish researching priesthood and finally (were you anxious?) the time arrives for the world to be turned into hell!

Apparently we could get a few more technologies, but we would risk losing our timing for an easy attack.
We have enough.

But there's still one more thing left to do before taking over the infernal.
We must screw up Hannah.

We change to despotism and slavery, delete the warriors, and whip the cities:

Spoiler :

We do this so that we, as the infernal, can get Rosier without them beating us to him. Otherwise, it's pretty much a sure thing that we will lose him.
And if we actually spawn near the Lanun, they will be easy targets.

There is no reason to feel sorry for Hannah, though. Once the AI takes over her, she'll get a bunch of diseased corpses and ritualists fast enough.

Now - Behold and bow before your torturer!:

Spoiler :

(man, that's really an ugly and disgusting face)

Hyborem's evil laugh resounds throughout Erebus.
Shivers shake every sensitive soul.

All flesh must turn into ash.
Beauty will be no more - the Infernal have arrived!:

Spoiler :

We immediately get a new mane (now, that's what I'm talking about) and notice Arendel close by converted to OO.

Well, well...
Poor little elves...

Calbrenar · Jul 20, 2011

This inspired me to try a hannah -> hyborem switch in an mp game last night. Unfortunately due to the OOS that occurs when you reload in the AI gets one turn with hyborem and immediately founds wherever they are. Doesn't appear to be anyway around it and makes dis pointless ;/

Still was fun trying the switch. Good reading so far

Horatius · Jul 20, 2011

Calbrenar said:
This inspired me to try a hannah -> hyborem switch in an mp game last night. Unfortunately due to the OOS that occurs when you reload in the AI gets one turn with hyborem and immediately founds wherever they are. Doesn't appear to be anyway around it and makes dis pointless ;/

Still was fun trying the switch. Good reading so far

Thanks.

Did you spawn in a terrible place? you can pretty much ignore Dis and just build a city somewhere else with your settler.
All that matters, anyway, is that you are immediately aggressive with your first units.
It's all about manes.

Horatius · Jul 20, 2011

- we immediately start building Rosier and start some technology trading with Flauros:

Spoiler :

We also gain an updated world map, understand that the Amurites are also in the game and realize that Beeri has at least seven cities already - we don't like this.
We cannot let a deity financial leader expand freely.

Still, what we need right now is souls - precious souls.
Hyborem's sadistic hunger craves souls.

But not good souls. Those taste poorly :vomit:

We need neutral souls. That's what we need :drool:

That's what Hyborem needs to burp with satisfaction (sick bastard).

and we have the elves right there worshiping the octopus. well...

By looking at the map we can realize that they don't have mining therefore no archery.
We only see hunters and warriors still, so it should be easy.

Also, take a look at this:

Spoiler :

What the hell happened there?
How come we are seeing two city ruins near that city?
Barbarian cities that spawned there and were razed? unlikely.
Did Arendel start an early war with Beeri and get unlucky?
Did Beeri have an army to do that and still was able to expand fast?

Wait a minute...
we remember that Orthus actually took a while to be killed.
Don't tell me that Arendel tried consistently to settle next to a goblin fort where Orthus spawned?
tss,tss...

Once this game is over we will have to open a previous save and use cheat mode to see if a goblin fort was there or not. because this doesn't make sense.

But right now Hyborem doesn't care for that. He's only sorry that he wasn't here on Erebus before to collect those souls.

Becoming enraged with that thought, he immediatly declares on the elves!:

Spoiler :

Estelindis · Jul 20, 2011

Horatius, I tried a game of Hannah -> Hyborem tonight, as this thread made it look so interesting. It ended up as one long curbstomp battle; none of my foes threatened me seriously at any point (though it should be mentioned that I only played on Monarch, as I've never tried a higher difficulty setting than that; I guess I will dare to do so now).

Sharing the (small) map with me were Os-Gabella, Beeri, Decius (Bannor), and Charadon. Beeri was the only good leader (Decius being neutral), and Hyborem spawned right beside him. After Hyborem took out Beeri and then Charadon, the barbarians decided we were getting too powerful, so I mostly wiped them out as well (gaining the Horsemen's unholy items) before crossing the sea to the landmasses with Hannah, Decius and Os-Gabella. Ashen Veil religious victory came first due to a Purge the Unfaithful ritual that I completed after conquering the Lanun and destroying the Song of Autumn (in a Bannor city; they'd never researched Order or Empyrean). This felt rather unsatisfying though (so much still undestroyed, mused Hybie, even after hitting 100 on the AC), I so reloaded, ditched the hammers for the ritual, and after some more turns conquered the Bannor and the Sheaim. It was fun most of the time, though the roleplaying element got a bit squicky naturally. (I'm used to destroying the Ashen Veil holy city as the only way to rid the world of AV - otherwise using Inquisition, since I don't like razing - but I've never destroyed the Fellowship one before. That felt kinda horrible.) Not a serious challenge, though. Guess I should've played Deity like you, but I'd thought I'd be out of my depth.

Thanks for the great idea.

Horatius · Jul 21, 2011

Estelindis said:
Horatius, I tried a game of Hannah -> Hyborem tonight, as this thread made it look so interesting. It ended up as one long curbstomp battle; none of my foes threatened me seriously at any point (though it should be mentioned that I only played on Monarch, as I've never tried a higher difficulty setting than that; I guess I will dare to do so now).

Sharing the (small) map with me were Os-Gabella, Beeri, Decius (Bannor), and Charadon. Beeri was the only good leader (Decius being neutral), and Hyborem spawned right beside him. After Hyborem took out Beeri and then Charadon, the barbarians decided we were getting too powerful, so I mostly wiped them out as well (gaining the Horsemen's unholy items) before crossing the sea to the landmasses with Hannah, Decius and Os-Gabella. Ashen Veil religious victory came first due to a Purge the Unfaithful ritual that I completed after conquering the Lanun and destroying the Song of Autumn (in a Bannor city; they'd never researched Order or Empyrean). This felt rather unsatisfying though (so much still undestroyed, mused Hybie, even after hitting 100 on the AC), I so reloaded, ditched the hammers for the ritual, and after some more turns conquered the Bannor and the Sheaim. It was fun most of the time, though the roleplaying element got a bit squicky naturally. (I'm used to destroying the Ashen Veil holy city as the only way to rid the world of AV - otherwise using Inquisition, since I don't like razing - but I've never destroyed the Fellowship one before. That felt kinda horrible.) Not a serious challenge, though. Guess I should've played Deity like you, but I'd thought I'd be out of my depth.

Thanks for the great idea.

Thanks for the comment and I'm glad that you've enjoyed it.

That is why I said in the first post that if you never achieved a win on deity you should try this

.
Even Immortal is too easy with this strategy, I'm telling right now.

Hannah can summon them so fast that, if nobody gives you pressure during the beeline, you will summon the infernal at a time when nobody can stop you.

It's a broken strategy. I actually only do this from time to time.

The Infernals can get conquest and domination victory too fast actually.
They are also the ones that can get the biggest amount of beakers in the lowest amount of time if you work for it.

It can be fun to build up and play economically with them (you always need manes, of course).

I'd recommend playing them in large maps where the opponents will have the chance to build up and summon the mercurians.
If you can enjoy it, you can develop an enormous good versus evil war in the late game in very big maps.

Btw, I also don't like razing the Fellowship of the leaves holy city either, lol.
When I play the Infernals I kind of miss the green...

Aline · Jul 21, 2011

Oh dear god not the FoL holy city, i remember razing it playing hippus.
Everything went downhill from that point on, got a massive diplo penalty from some FoL Bannor who then startet a war and bribed the Order Clan with Mercurians (!!) as their back up, into fighting me.
This was one of the very few games i acctualy lost against the AI in a late game conquest situation.

Horatius · Jul 21, 2011

-

We attack some units in the field and get the first promotions.

Hyborem screams horribly and, brimming with power, doesn't waste time attacking the first city in sight:

Spoiler :

We only leave one longbow to defend Dis. The rest of the troops immediately move forward into the action and interchange the Gela between themselves.

Two more manes sign up for citizenship in our capital (people love the whip...):

Spoiler :

Arendel tries to reinforce the city. Not wanting that to happen we use our warriors as fodder and quickly Hell's Breath coughs in the surrounding land:

Spoiler :

Mwahahahahah :mwaha:

!
Hyborem laughs and laughs it out like the great motherfarmer of demons that he is (this will happen a LOT!).
He personally slashes every single new mane and propels them flying into Dis (now that was some whipping action...).

Rosier joins the hell's ranks and our city starts building a temple for future ritualists.
We approach the next enemy city and watch the enemy trying some funny business:

Spoiler :

What a silly move.

Anyway, Dis, that coveted destination by all who die (oh, yes), populated is becoming – behold:

Spoiler :

Just the beginning.

Demons learn how to write with evil partner Flauros:

Spoiler :

The Lanun declares on the Sidar and we try to wear down the elven city slowly.
Our units will not attack with less than 95% odds. It's important that they survive since our early conquest depends on them.
Hyborem, of course, being a fat demon, has no trouble jumping and rolling over everyone now. It's the other units that we are worrying about.

The goal regarding promotions is March. After that we'll get drill since our units will be powerful enough.

Every single turn we check for trades:

Spoiler :

The Temple of the overlords will give us one more scientist. Calendar will place us closer to festivals.

(It is with temples and such that you improve the Infernal's economy before guilds or scholarship)

Our longbow that stayed behind entertains himself killing bears and the first ritualist moves forward so that he (or it?) can help in finishing off the city:

Spoiler :

But our units are so determined (and scared of Hyborem's wrath) that we actually terminate the city before the arrival of the ritualist :

Spoiler :

Manes! Precious Manes!
More! More! :whipped:

To be continued....

UncleJJ · Jul 21, 2011

I am puzzled by why you are razing all the cities that you capture? A size 12 city will become a size 11 city once it comes out of revolt already equiped with the infernal buildings including forge and elder council, plus it's another place to build an AV temple. How many manes are you getting from those razed cities and how many are you getting from killing OO units?

The other huge advantage of other cities is the ability to use the Obsidian gate to send a unit each turn to another city. That's a lot faster than normal movement for distances more than about 6 tiles even over roads and a lot safer.

Could you just discuss your thinking here. Is this only something you do early on because you don't have enough troops to defend a city?

Incidentally a quick way to build a ritualist is to build a savant and then upgrade for 125 gold. You have plenty of gold and a ritualist or two will enable you to speed up your conquest to get even more gold. As soon as you have 2 ritualists you'll be able to capture / raze cities much easier and could probably use warriors / axes and your champions will have nearly no risk of getting killed.
---------------

Incidentally, I am playing my version of your game based on the turn 109 savegame you provided, and I'm having great fun on Diety. Thanks for posting that

I probaly researched a few too many techs before finishing Infernal Pact which I did on turn 157.

That was probably waiting too long for a diety game and most of the good spots were taken and the AI expanded and made too much tech progress. I researched Bronze Working (for iron axemen), Horseback Riding (mobility), Trade (chariots, trade route, tech trades and Foreign Trade civic) was really good and Priesthood. Sailing was probably unecessary. I may have been unlucky but it took 3 attempts to get a viable start position. This was partly due to me being unfamiliar with the procedure and partly due to the deity difficulty. Once I was hemmed in by Tasunke and his horsemen were surprisingly tough (with diety promotions) and hard to catch as they withdrew again and again :mad:

. The second was just viable but uninteresting so I tried again.

But eventually I got a good start and have established a powerful position eventally wiping out the Lanun. I did get quite a few manes from other civs wars between Tansunke and Sandaphon and between Flauros and Beeri mostly from dead OO and Esus units which all sides have. I have kept all the cities using a zealot to instantly pop the borders with 20 :culture:

. It is turn 242 now and I have just captured Beeri's capital with and a load of wonders and settled GPs and some of his engineers from the golden hammer. I think it's game over now unless the Mercurians have a lot of angels somewhere. I can't see any of the others putting anything together than could stop me now they are too busy fighting among themselves. I am 5 turns from Taxation and Caste System which will give all my specialists +2 :culture:

and 1

and that makes even a citizen useful. That will probably seal the game and let me go to a high gold rush buy and upgrade type of economy while specialists do the research.

The key to my game was researching Fanaticism and using the Infernal Grimoire to get Malevolent Designs (12025 beakers). That gives my main strike force 9 top grade units; 4 Beasts of Agares, 4 Eidolons and Mardero, which with Hyborem himself can take a city defended by dwarf slingers and soldiers of kilmorph despite the 85% city defences. Unfortunately my ritualists and all spell casters are disabled by Arcane Lacuna right now.

---------------

I will follow your game with great interest and be able to compare your playstyle with mine

.
I am expecting a lot of warring from you :ar15:

as you

the AI and force them to :assimilate:

Keep up the good work.

Horatius · Jul 22, 2011

UncleJJ said:
I am puzzled by why you are razing all the cities that you capture? A size 12 city will become a size 11 city once it comes out of revolt already equiped with the infernal buildings including forge and elder council, plus it's another place to build an AV temple. How many manes are you getting from those razed cities and how many are you getting from killing OO units?

Ha ha, the main reason that I did it is because I felt like it and I thought that Hyborem should make a kick ass entrance.
Isn't it proper that the sadistic demon should enter the game razing everything?
I'm mostly having fun and I'm not aiming to play perfectly.

But what is the best move anyway?
I will surely at least raze one city to get as much manes as possible to immediate take advantage of the hammer bonus in my capital.
Just a few extra manes can make a difference so that I can end up producing everything that I want fast enough.

I'm razing the one near the coast that has only one mine.
How about the second Elven city, should I keep it?
Probably, although it hardly has any mines as well. I guess I could run some specialists meanwhile and try to cottage the land around it (it takes a while).
The third one is fine to keep but I'm razing it anyway in the game.

In the end I'll just take the dwarf cities and that will be enough since he has plenty. And since I can't get any manes from him I'll just get them from Arendel first.
Once I start conquering the dwarf I wouldn't be surprised if I don't get any manes whatsoever for quite a while.

Also, I wasn't sure when I could get cartography. Without cartography, if I conquer new cities too fast I'll have maintenance problems (I'm already close to the red) because the cities start with a bunch of buildings.
- Arendel didn't have any cottages whatsoever!
I wish she did. I don't really have any commerce right now.

I'm also forcing blight to slow down everyone and conquer the dwarf more easily.

This is also another thing that allows me to further delay the building of the grimoire. I don't want to build it right away.
But if I take too long to build it, the Lanun will eventually get it.
I screwed them before switching, they already wasted turns trying to get Rosier and they will spend turns getting diseased corpses, temples and ritualists and maybe even building the prophecy of ragnarok before the grimoire simply because I put some hammers into it.
But eventually they will get it if I take too long.

Anyway, it's probably better to at least keep two cities. But I don't think that it really matters since I'm keeping most of the dwarf cities and my capital will be enough to produce what I want for a while.
Besides, the infernal don't really need many cities. I don't need an big production cycle of units right now (and I can't support it) and, for research, in the long run it will be better to have a 60 population city with the crown than six 10 population cities.

In the end, I simply razed them because Hyborem is not very merciful...

UncleJJ said:
Incidentally a quick way to build a ritualist is to build a savant and then upgrade for 125 gold. You have plenty of gold and a ritualist or two will enable you to speed up your conquest to get even more gold. As soon as you have 2 ritualists you'll be able to capture / raze cities much easier and could probably use warriors / axes and your champions will have nearly no risk of getting killed.

My capital is producing ritualists every 2 turns so there is no need to spend money upgrading. I'll also use some warriors as cannon fodder.
The gold is for research.

UncleJJ said:
Incidentally, I am playing my version of your game based on the turn 109 savegame you provided, and I'm having great fun on Diety. Thanks for posting that I probaly researched a few too many techs before finishing Infernal Pact which I did on turn 157.

In many games, you don't have the luxury to research many technologies for the infernal.
It's just that the start was pretty good for that. We were only missing pearls.
If I'm put under pressure I'll only end up researching education and I'll get priesthood with the grimoire.
It's not that simple as it looks like in this game. It was really a fine and peaceful start.
For an easy conquest with your first stack you should try to summon them around turn 120.

UncleJJ said:
That was probably waiting too long for a diety game and most of the good spots were taken and the AI expanded and made too much tech progress. I researched Bronze Working (for iron axemen), Horseback Riding (mobility), Trade (chariots, trade route, tech trades and Foreign Trade civic) was really good and Priesthood. Sailing was probably unecessary.

I don't usually research bronze working and the melee line when I can build diseased corpses.
Besides our first units, I like diseased corpses, chariots, ritualists and mages with the infernal.

UncleJJ said:
I may have been unlucky but it took 3 attempts to get a viable start position. This was partly due to me being unfamiliar with the procedure and partly due to the deity difficulty. Once I was hemmed in by Tasunke and his horsemen were surprisingly tough (with diety promotions) and hard to catch as they withdrew again and again .

I don't quite understand what you mean by a viable start position. As long as you start next to someone that is probably good enough. Who cares if you are hemmed in if you are going to conquer them anyway? Horsemen cannot withdraw from cities so go get them. What exactly happened?

UncleJJ said:
But eventually I got a good start and have established a powerful position eventally wiping out the Lanun. I did get quite a few manes from other civs wars between Tansunke and Sandaphon and between Flauros and Beeri mostly from dead OO and Esus units which all sides have. I have kept all the cities using a zealot to instantly pop the borders with 20 . It is turn 242 now and I have just captured Beeri's capital with and a load of wonders and settled GPs and some of his engineers from the golden hammer. I think it's game over now unless the Mercurians have a lot of angels somewhere. I can't see any of the others putting anything together than could stop me now they are too busy fighting among themselves. I am 5 turns from Taxation and Caste System which will give all my specialists +2 and 1 and that makes even a citizen useful. That will probably seal the game and let me go to a high gold rush buy and upgrade type of economy while specialists do the research.

It seems that you had a good game. By the way, did you research arcane lore?

UncleJJ said:
I will follow your game with great interest and be able to compare your playstyle with mine .
I am expecting a lot of warring from you as you the AI and force them to

Keep up the good work.

Thanks!

UncleJJ · Jul 23, 2011

Horatius said:
Ha ha, the main reason that I did it is because I felt like it and I thought that Hyborem should make a kick ass entrance.
Isn't it proper that the sadistic demon should enter the game razing everything?
I'm mostly having fun and I'm not aiming to play perfectly.

But what is the best move anyway?
I will surely at least raze one city to get as much manes as possible to immediate take advantage of the hammer bonus in my capital.
Just a few extra manes can make a difference so that I can end up producing everything that I want fast enough.

I'm razing the one near the coast that has only one mine.
How about the second Elven city, should I keep it?
Probably, although it hardly has any mines as well. I guess I could run some specialists meanwhile and try to cottage the land around it (it takes a while).
The third one is fine to keep but I'm razing it anyway in the game.

In the end I'll just take the dwarf cities and that will be enough since he has plenty. And since I can't get any manes from him I'll just get them from Arendel first.
Once I start conquering the dwarf I wouldn't be surprised if I don't get any manes whatsoever for quite a while.

Also, I wasn't sure when I could get cartography. Without cartography, if I conquer new cities too fast I'll have maintenance problems (I'm already close to the red) because the cities start with a bunch of buildings.
- Arendel didn't have any cottages whatsoever!
I wish she did. I don't really have any commerce right now.

I'm also forcing blight to slow down everyone and conquer the dwarf more easily.

This is also another thing that allows me to further delay the building of the grimoire. I don't want to build it right away.
But if I take too long to build it, the Lanun will eventually get it.
I screwed them before switching, they already wasted turns trying to get Rosier and they will spend turns getting diseased corpses, temples and ritualists and maybe even building the prophecy of ragnarok before the grimoire simply because I put some hammers into it.
But eventually they will get it if I take too long.

Anyway, it's probably better to at least keep two cities. But I don't think that it really matters since I'm keeping most of the dwarf cities and my capital will be enough to produce what I want for a while.
Besides, the infernal don't really need many cities. I don't need an big production cycle of units right now (and I can't support it) and, for research, in the long run it will be better to have a 60 population city with the crown than six 10 population cities.

In the end, I simply razed them because Hyborem is not very merciful...

Having thought about this some more I have changed my mind

and now I think you are right to raze these early cities. The extra manes are very useful in Dis even if they only provide citizen specialists. I was under the impression that citizens are too weak only giving a hammer, but of course in Dis you have the Infernal palace, a forge and the Godking and Nationhood civics which means they effectively give 2.35 hammers (units), 3.25 (temples) and 2.25 (other buildings). So building up 20 or even 30 manes could be a good idea in Dis. The AI will resettle the area anyway and you can take (or harvest :satan:

) those cities again in say 50 turns.

I think the game information and in the manual about the manes we get from razing cities could be wrong. I tested razing Beeri's city (from a savegame) and that gave me 5 or 6 manes from a size 16 city and he's good. Other information I've read, sorry I can't remember where, suggested that razing an evil city gave 2 manes and a neutral city gave 1 mane (or the other way round) regardless of city size. But you are getting a lot more than that and so was I and from a good civ. Something has been changed by Kael or Tholal since the information was provided and none of the information has been updated that I can find. Could I ask you to take note of how many manes you get from any cities you raze and also the city size and civ alignment? I'll do that in my game as well but as I'm fighting Beeri and Basium it might be some time before I get useful data. It seems that city razing could be a very good source of manes and I would like to know just how good.

My capital is producing ritualists every 2 turns so there is no need to spend money upgrading. I'll also use some warriors as cannon fodder.
The gold is for research.

Indeed, on closer inspection Dis is more productive than I imagined and will be a very nice city once your workers have improved the 3 plains hills and built some cottages. Plains cottages are good and you can have 3 riverside grassland cottages (which are OK). Once you build a library, OO temple and an academy it will be a good production and research city.

I don't usually research bronze working and the melee line when I can build diseased corpses.
Besides our first units, I like diseased corpses, chariots, ritualists and mages with the infernal.

Iron axemen are usually enough to take early cities, with ritualist support once the top defender has been killed by Hyborem, and they are only 60 :hammers:

while the diseased corpses are 90. Also axemen can be upgraded to chariots and most of the other higher level units so a highly promoted one is worth keeping. A diseased corpse can only be upgraded to an eidolon and there are much better units (like a ritualist) to upgrade to the eidolon so they're a bit of a dead end. I also build warriors in low production cities and upgrade them to axemen, or achers depending on need. Also Bronze Working is a requirement for Warfare which gives two good civics for the Infernals; Military State and Conquest. Bronze Working is a very useful tech.

I don't quite understand what you mean by a viable start position. As long as you start next to someone that is probably good enough. Who cares if you are hemmed in if you are going to conquer them anyway? Horsemen cannot withdraw from cities so go get them. What exactly happened?

Well I haven't played the Infernals for about 9 months and several things seem to have changed since then (or my memory is not good). I was annoyed by the way the game changes all the civics for the Infernals and then gives control to the player; this means I have to wait 10 turns to choose the civics I wanted to use. Then the site for my Dis was much worse than yours in this game. It had one plains hill and one grassland hill and one flat grassland, and lots of coastal tiles, some mountains and ocean... really weak production and no resources. Also I played badly and split my forces after I took a small city size 4 which I kept. I now realise I should have razed that city and kept my stack together, the manes would have been useful once I changed civics to Godking and I captured a worker (even if he didn't have much to do yet). Hyborem was badly wounded by the single warrior defending and without a ritualist being available yet it would take 5 turns to heal him. I couldn't do much without him, the champions were still virgins. Then I was attacked by Tasunke's horsemen and they kept retreating even though I beat them off and when I chased them they retreated again. I was not happy :lol:

It seems that you had a good game. By the way, did you research arcane lore?

Not yet, it on my to-do-list

None of the AIs have Sorcery yet so I should get it first using Caste System. I managed to build the Great Library so my sages are extra good anyway and Scholarship won't be that important to stay ahead in technology. My few arcane units are some way off being able to become archmages / liches so I don't need Arcane Lore to research Strength of Will yet.

Horatius · Jul 23, 2011

UncleJJ said:
The AI will resettle the area anyway and you can take (or harvest ) those cities again in say 50 turns.

Even sooner on deity

.

UncleJJ said:
I think the game information and in the manual about the manes we get from razing cities could be wrong. I tested razing Beeri's city (from a savegame) and that gave me 5 or 6 manes from a size 16 city and he's good. Other information I've read, sorry I can't remember where, suggested that razing an evil city gave 2 manes and a neutral city gave 1 mane (or the other way round) regardless of city size. But you are getting a lot more than that and so was I and from a good civ. Something has been changed by Kael or Tholal since the information was provided and none of the information has been updated that I can find. Could I ask you to take note of how many manes you get from any cities you raze and also the city size and civ alignment? I'll do that in my game as well but as I'm fighting Beeri and Basium it might be some time before I get useful data.

It seems that you can get up to six manes from razing a neutral or evil city. Maybe you can get more than that? I confess that I never paid much attention at how many manes I'm getting just from razing and how many from killing units when I capture a city. I remember once getting 11 manes after capturing a evil city with five defenders - I believe that was pretty much the best result possible, I don't know.
It's kind of random.
I will PM Tholal to see if he knows that part of the code.

You should not be able to get manes from razing a good city. Are you sure that the manes didn't come from OO units and such? Maybe there's actually a tiny chance to get them and I never really noticed it?

UncleJJ said:
It seems that city razing could be a very good source of manes and I would like to know just how good.

Most of the time I'm inclined to raze every city that I don't care about. I'm not necessarily going to do that in this game but I usually find that working to get a big merchant's city and a very big scientist's city is a very good strategy for long games in big maps - and it may not take that long if you are really aggressive.
Raising the AC fast is also good.

UncleJJ said:
Iron axemen are usually enough to take early cities, with ritualist support once the top defender has been killed by Hyborem, and they are only 60 while the diseased corpses are 90. Also axemen can be upgraded to chariots and most of the other higher level units so a highly promoted one is worth keeping. A diseased corpse can only be upgraded to an eidolon and there are much better units (like a ritualist) to upgrade to the eidolon so they're a bit of a dead end. I also build warriors in low production cities and upgrade them to axemen, or achers depending on need. Also Bronze Working is a requirement for Warfare which gives two good civics for the Infernals; Military State and Conquest. Bronze Working is a very useful tech.

I see your point. I guess that it's a question of playstyle, that's all. I'm just disinclined to spend turns researching what I feel I don't need (those turns accumulate you know and meanwhile the AI gets more and more stuff).
Also, for me the argument that diseased corpses are more expensive doesn't really matter with the infernal. What matters to me is how many turns I'm taking to produce stuff. If I can easily set up a bunch of infernal cities to produce diseased corpses or chariots in two or three turns even without military state (very useful civic, no doubt, and one to get eventually), well then that's that.
I'm also disinclined to strategies that involve upgrading units without ingenuity. They can really be expensive.
A question of play style.

UncleJJ said:
Then I was attacked by Tasunke's horsemen and they kept retreating even though I beat them off and when I chased them they retreated again. I was not happy

Welcome to the Hippus nightmare! :lol:

Have you played them on diety when they get big and have a lot of chariots and horse archers? You can be the most patient guy, you will still go mad (and they pillage like crazy).

UncleJJ said:
Not yet, it on my to-do-list None of the AIs have Sorcery yet so I should get it first using Caste System. I managed to build the Great Library so my sages are extra good anyway and Scholarship won't be that important to stay ahead in technology. My few arcane units are some way off being able to become archmages / liches so I don't need Arcane Lore to research Strength of Will yet.

Scholarship is huge with the infernal. Huge!
I've played a little more than 200 turns and I'm already ahead of you in tech because of this (and because I didn't waste time researching what I didn't need before when it was expensive (for example I ended up researching warfare in just one turn)). I'm confident that you will agree with me eventually in this point.

The discussion is good by the way

Tholal · Jul 23, 2011

I replied to Horatious' request about how Manes are generated and figured I would copy the info here.

Manes productions is handled in Python in CvEventManager.py under the onCityRazed section.

Oddly enough, it's based on the current alignment of the original owner.

Evil = 1 Manes per pop

Neutral = divide pop by 4, add one them multiply that number by 2

Good - none

You also get Manes for units that die who have a religion of Esus, Ashen Veil, Octopus Overlords or who have Death1 or Entropy1 promotions (however, they do have to be alive). Strangely, you get two Manes for each of these units when they're killed!

Horatius · Jul 24, 2011

- The massacre must needs go on!

Hyborem approaches the last Elven city bringing this time under the black shadow of his wings a ritualist with eyes that blaze hatred:

Spoiler :

We decide that after razing that city we will build our second near its remains.
Another ritualist escorts the settler, bringing him closer to the place of despair (by the way, isn't it interesting that the settler on the hill kind of almost works like a hawk?):

Spoiler :

The population of masochists keeps growing:

Spoiler :

Arendel makes an interesting defensive move trying to prevent units from reaching the main stack:

Spoiler :

Those units make a step back (she still had hunters in the city) but Hyborem continues to assault and bring the pain to the city.

In the next turn, Erebus laments the loss of the tree hugging elves, Nature itself rages preparing to bring disease to all the land:

Spoiler :

Hyborem roars in delight as the curse of Blight strikes all that reject the infernal demon way.

Meanwhile, more trades:

Spoiler :

It is unlikely that Flauros will dismiss the supremacy of OO in his cities and adopt AV to build diseased corpses.
It's a fine trade for us at this point (no way I'm giving him cultists just like that, though).

We adopt cartography and build a new city:

Spoiler :

We will eventually research sorcery and get arcane lore with the grimoire. With scholarship and the crown we will be able to research what we want fast enough.

What is the next war move?
Beeri has at the very least eight cities.
We cannot allow him to continue growing and summon the Mercurians.
Hell must spread:

Spoiler :

What better time to strike than during blight? - Golems will cry with hell's fire!

Horatius · Jul 24, 2011

A useless and small town is our first victim and we raze it as well:

Spoiler :

We're going to try to keep almost all of the dwarf cities, though.

We learn that Bambur and the Mines have been created but the advance shall not stop - some warriors and diseased corpses will be joining our conquest stack:

Spoiler :

We take that city! Flauros joins the fun:

Spoiler :

We approach another city and see a big stack that was there running away. Only five defenders are left behind. The dwarf is suffering in production during blight and he knows that he can't resist Hyborem's might. Tasunke also joins the war (I guess that the good shall die young...):

Spoiler :

We take Mutanbo and feel that we don't really need to make any more units for a while. We change to slavery to force the defeated units into hard labor and rush production (but we make the mistake of forgetting to change to pacifism; by the way, isn't it ironic that pacifism helps the infernal so much?

).

Here is our military for now:

Spoiler :

A glance at our first and second cities:

Spoiler :

We will use a few zealots to pop borders and spread OO so that we are able to build a few more temples of the overlords.

to be continued...

Horatius · Jul 25, 2011

Another easy city is conquered:

Spoiler :

Hyborem continues to push forward the hell terrain but the dwarf still thinks that it is a good idea to continue in expansion mode (he really had a bunch of cities (does the AI still think that it needs to expand in the same way and rate as in Civ4, btw?)) What the hell is he trying to accomplish with that sneaky settler?:

Spoiler :

Bam! Iron is monopolized:

Spoiler :

He's hardly pumping new units during blight and one more city falls.
Then finally his decent stack shows up. What took him so long and where was that before?:

Spoiler :

We wear that stack down in a few turns and with already some libraries, temples, cottages and pillage money we decide to put some beakers into sorcery.

Check that out - two new fast workers for free:

Spoiler :

Amazingly, we still haven't lost a single unit. Ring of fire is being that painful:

Spoiler :

Hell simply was unleashed too soon and Hope no longer exists in this world's open Pandora box.

Hyborem roars terribly, forces knees to the ground and demands expensive tribute:

Spoiler :

We don't want any cities. If we demand cities they will only become semi-demonic and we will have to deal with unhappiness. We rather conquer them later. Besides, maybe they'll grow meanwhile.

What is most important now is to immediately declare war on the Lanun and prevent them from building the grimoire. We are already risking losing it:

Spoiler :

Manes! I miss you Manes!
(but dang it, why did she have to whip that city? - we raze the useless thing)

Spoiler :

Down, girl, down!:

Spoiler :

We felt like keeping that one for the pirate ports.

Some more temples are added, sorcery is learned and the grimoire completed.
Demons will soon be scholars (well, if you actually know something about the academic world...):

Spoiler :

We really wanted to raze that useless thing but I guess that we should keep the holy city:

Spoiler :

Yes, Hannah, give some sugar to us:

Spoiler :

At this point we only have to spam chariots to win, but we will give a notion of how fast you can research with the infernal.

We proceed to build the Great Library and the Crown in our capital while going towards Taxation.

UncleJJ · Jul 26, 2011

Looks like a clean up job from here on. :lol:

Without Basium where can the opposition come from? You can raze most of the remaining cities (Flauros is evil, and the other two are neutral) and take the manes or keep them it doesn't make much difference. The barbarians will soon declare war on you but Stephanos and Buboes are not much of a problem for your stack as long as your best cities have a decent garrison when the AC hits 40 and 50, something you can probably control.

The extortion trade deal with Beeri and Hannah gave you loads of beakers. I'm getting the impression that pointy stick research is far too easy on deity FfH2, on lower levels the AI won't have the techs at that time in the game; you would have to wait to get that good a haul like that amounting to several 1000's of beakers. Also it is interesting that you could only "trade" with Beeri because he had Trade (I presume this is true for FfH2 as it is BtS), as you didn't at that stage. It was my experience with Hyborem on lower level games that made me stay with the Lanun until I had Trade, you seem to have gotten lucky there

The Lanun cities were pathetic and very dissapointing, probably the result of Blight, my versions of these cities are powerhouses and Innsmouth was my capitol for many turns (since transferred to Beeri's city). That was where I put most of my early manes and it is now size 22 or so. Also I guess you have to provide a GP or GS to get the AV shrine, although it won't have much effect beyond giving entropy mana. In my game I ensured that the extra turns I used with the Lanun provided that for me

and the shrine plus the Great Library was the source of much of my early research as well as the pirate ports. In my game I was always struggling to gain more hammers, hence the emphasis on hammers and gold for upgrades, research was adequate, so in some ways the reverse of your game here. That probably accounts for our different perspectives.

Minor quibble: why do you build the library before the AV temple in most of your new cities? Is that not the wrong way round ?

Also you don't seem to be using zealots or thanes to pop city borders and bring them out of revolt, that actually saves hammers in bigger cities (if you count turns in revolt as lost hammers) as well as immediately getting all the tiles in the BFC rather than waiting nearly 12 turns (at 0.8 :culture:

).

Scholarship will allow you to do some research but I can't help feeling the game is essentially over and again you have only researched the first half of the tech tree and have no need of other techs. Infernals have the summoner trait that will probably not be used :sad:

Of course that sort of military rush you have demonstrated here happens in BtS as well and is a symptom of Pangea maps in particular which encourage that style of play. Hopefully you will play on a map that has several landmasses next time and we get to see some naval action, that was Tholal's original aim with his mod afterall :lol:

Anyway, nice game, thanks for posting. I await the next installment

Game diary: Deity, summoning the Infernals early (FfH2 with Tholal's mod)

Prince

Prince

Prince

Prince

Prince

Prince

Prince

Chieftain

Prince

Cat

Prince

Deity

Prince

Deity

Prince

Emperor

Prince

Prince

Prince

Deity

Similar threads