Game diary: Deity, summoning the Infernals early (FfH2 with Tholal's mod)

I replied to Horatious' request about how Manes are generated and figured I would copy the info here.

Manes productions is handled in Python in CvEventManager.py under the onCityRazed section.

Oddly enough, it's based on the current alignment of the original owner.

Evil = 1 Manes per pop

Neutral = divide pop by 4, add one them multiply that number by 2

Good - none


You also get Manes for units that die who have a religion of Esus, Ashen Veil, Octopus Overlords or who have Death1 or Entropy1 promotions (however, they do have to be alive). Strangely, you get two Manes for each of these units when they're killed!

Thanks for answering my questions so completely :) I was aware, and the old documentation is correct, of the way killing units of the 3 "evil" religions and with the mana promotions. In fact I've just captured a cultist from Basium using Madero who has Command 3 and not only did I get a cultist (a useful unit the Infernals can't build) but also 2 manes :lol:


The number of manes from Evil and Neutral cities is much more than old documentation (Civilopedia and Manual) indicates and is as Horatius has demonstrated they can be a major source of manes, if the player is ruthless (and why not? :satan:) This of course gives the Infernal player a big incentive to take over (liberate?) the citizens of other evil players ;)

The current alignment of the original owner oddity that you mention will soon come into play in my version of Horatius's game. Basium (currently Good) has captured 2 of Flauros's cities and he's still Evil. Both are weak cities that I'd like to raze if they don't have something nice inside. So I can expect to get manes from a "Good" city.

Incidentally, I think my earlier report of getting manes from a Good city was simply my poor eyesight misreading the red message that told me that razing a Good city sent reinforcements to the Mercurians (and not the Infernals), then I gained some manes from the war between other civs next turn, hence my confusion. So thanks for putting my mind at rest on that matter.
 
Looks like a clean up job from here on.

Pretty much.

The extortion trade deal with Beeri and Hannah gave you loads of beakers. I'm getting the impression that pointy stick research is far too easy on deity FfH2, on lower levels the AI won't have the techs at that time in the game; you would have to wait to get that good a haul like that amounting to several 1000's of beakers. Also it is interesting that you could only "trade" with Beeri because he had Trade (I presume this is true for FfH2 as it is BtS), as you didn't at that stage. It was my experience with Hyborem on lower level games that made me stay with the Lanun until I had Trade, you seem to have gotten lucky there ;)

Some civilizations will get trade fairly quickly on deity: the financial leaders like Beeri and Flauros, people like the Hippus and the Grigori for chariots, Auric, Lanun, also Balseraphs.
It is easy if you conquer them easily - in this case it was easy.

The Lanun cities were pathetic and very dissapointing, probably the result of Blight

That and they whipped a bunch of units using slavery.

Minor quibble: why do you build the library before the AV temple in most of your new cities? Is that not the wrong way round ? :p

More important is the beakers multiplication in preparation for scholarship.

Also you don't seem to be using zealots or thanes to pop city borders and bring them out of revolt, that actually saves hammers in bigger cities (if you count turns in revolt as lost hammers) as well as immediately getting all the tiles in the BFC rather than waiting nearly 12 turns (at 0.8 :culture:).

I did it but not in all the cities.

Scholarship will allow you to do some research but I can't help feeling the game is essentially over and again you have only researched the first half of the tech tree and have no need of other techs.

You usually only need the first half of the tech tree in this game. That's my only problem with it.

I'll just demonstrate a little what kind of research you can do with the infernal. You are clearly undervaluing scholarship. Getting 1500 beakers around turn 200 is not just some research. I can research everything very fast if I want to (with bulbs as well).

Infernals have the summoner trait that will probably not be used :sad: Of course that sort of military rush you have demonstrated here happens in BtS as well and is a symptom of Pangea maps in particular which encourage that style of play.

That is true but a game without wars is boring. The more contact, the more chances the AI has to win, actually.
I never expected to lose with the infernal - this is just an occasional strategy for fun, and I wanted to show how broken it is.
Next game will be harder (of course I'll try to make it seem easy so...).

Hopefully you will play on a map that has several landmasses next time and we get to see some naval action, that was Tholal's original aim with his mod afterall :lol:

You are right and I'll try to play in other maps. I chose Pangaea because in these maps the beginning tends to be hard on diety (I guess that these game diaries were not the best demonstration of that...).

Anyway, nice game, thanks for posting. I await the next installment :)

Thanks.
 
Now that currency has been researched, it's time that all the others publicly recognize who is superior:
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You too, give all you have to me – and no complaints, you are lucky to be alive:
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Who's your daddy?:
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Hyborem is.

It's time to finish off the dwarf:
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Would you look at that? We actually captured a Stonewarden. In addition to enchanted blade, we now have shield of faith.

We actually try to start the Form of the Titan. Why not?
We also change to caste system. With scholarship, caste system and the great library, our specialists are now producing 6 beakers each.
Let's just wait for the crown to finish.

We finish learning military strategy to enable blitz and go towards engineering for the guild of hammers.
Also, the barbarians end the truce with us (like we care – It just means that we have more manes' sources).

Meanwhile, we must say goodbye to another civilization (oh, we shall meet them in the other hell):
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Flauros beats us to the form of the Titan and, as punishment, Stephanos comes alive to harass him and kills Saverous.

Hannah gets out of the game and we start researching malevolent designs with almost 1500 beakers (for now) before turn 200 without even trying hard:
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Our capital:
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After a few turns, Stephanos actually ends up entering our territory and kills a longbow. Hyborem was not pleased:
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Hyborem whispers wickedly into the city with the form of the Titan and the citizens cannot resist it:
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(Why wasn't the gold being worked?)

We research guilds while the demonic empire prospers and the land burns, burns, BURNS!:
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(man, one has to play a game with the Elohim after this)
 
Oh, we get hit by the Calabim world spell which is not fun at all.

Anyway, we change to guilds and will focus on production now (I have so many workshops that it's metal land down there, not hell terrain).
We upgrade some units to Eidolons and our capital will produce some more very special troops:
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We complete the Guild of hammers and start a golden age.
It's time to finish what is becoming a boring game. Let the chariot spam begin!:
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We raze and will bring Armageddon soon – It is the end. Hyborem jubilates.
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We'll just see how big can we get our capital to be and how much money and how much beakers it can produce before the game ends.
 
- Just quickly finishing up the game and showing how sick an infernal economy can be by harvesting Manes.

Buboes dies:
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The Hippus falls and the Sidar is next.
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Meanwhile, we build some money multipliers in our capital, switch to God King and consumption and here's some results (even with the horrendous maintenance costs that I end up with):
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The Sidar learn about death and Flauros doesn't even know what hit him:
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There's only one thing that I have to say: Tons of Manes! Many many Manes!

We move against the Amurites:
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More money:
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A few turns later we try to see how many beakers we can generate while the city continues to grow:
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We continue to push and research theology in three turns:
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Our Beast of Agares beats the Art of Dying in a 50-50 battle:
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Yawn:
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Almost 3000 beakers:
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And that's it. There was not much to say at the end.

I had fun with this little game. Now, to move on to bigger challenges.
 
Agreed, Horatius. After my own game, I tried your save from just after you summoned Hyborem, and it's ridiculous how easy it is.

Thanks for another very entertaining game thread.
 
I finally found the time to finish off my version of this game and it is my first deity win on FfH2 :band: Thanks Horatius for that savegame, it was most enjoyable.

A domination win on turn 285 which was a nice relaxed pace and gave me enough time to do a few other things I had never done before in a game. For instance I had never used a Profane (the AV highpriest) or a Death Knight in a game before and they were very powerful and I'm glad I took it that far.

The game was essentially won once I had used the Infernal Grimoire to get Malevolent Designs and the 9 powerful units that unleashes but I wanted to explore the Summoner trait that the Infernals have. But first let's celebrate the big guys :lol: Despite hundreds of combats, the top 10 units (including Hyborem) I only lost 2 Beasts of Agares, and that was to massive stacks of counter attacking Treants (from March of the Trees). Many of the early combats were at 95% but I got lucky and once the units gained a few promotions they could attack defenders in cities without bothering about defences and had 99% chances after the ritualists had used the Ring of Flames. I found that the march promotion was the most useful for these units as that meant they could fight a battle every turn if needed.

I had a few chariots and axemen to support the big guys and hold cities. I kept a few more cities than Horatius did but that was partly because I tackled the civs in a different order and Beeri summoned the Mercurians, so I had a lot stiffer opposition, at least in theory (but more about the AI silliness later). I declared war on the Lanun and then Beeri, bribing Flauros to attack him as well. Then Beeri summoned Basium and proceeded to bash Flauros and Tansunke taking several of their cities. Arendel Phaedra (twice) and Valledia declared war on me, (probably bribed by Beeri) and I had to fight defensive wars on two fronts as well as attack and eventually take the best 5 of Beeri's cities including his capital. This produced some manes from Beeri's troops and some angels from other of his troops. The other nations were also fighting each other and so many more manes and angles were produced from battles I couldn't see.

I could have finished the game with chariots and champions supporting the 10 big guys (like Horatius did) but I was determined to make the game last long enough to test the interactions of Spiritual and Summoning traits, that meant getting the Profanes and also to make battle mages from upgrading savants. Battle mage is my name for mages that specialise in casting strong summons (spectres in this case) and take combat and extension promotions to make these summons better. The imps took various spell promotions and became utility adepts and utility mages that provided support spells (enchant, rust, slow etc.) for the battle mages and other troops and one of them took metamagic so I could swap mana nodes around a bit using Dispel Magic. Most of the battle mages were made by building a savant and then at 10 exp promoting to a mage (with at least 3 death mana). Since the Spiritual trait gives potency I planned to allow the savants to sit around and slowly gain the 8 exp they needed. But this proved to be far too slow and also unecessary as using combat gets there much faster. Beeri and Basium kept sending raiders into my territory attacking the troops guarding my workers or a skeleton I put out as bait. I could then kill off the stranded raider with a savant or if it was too strong weaken it with a ritualist first and then kill it. Some of the savant combats were risky (65%) but I got lucky again and again :D ; this savant was upgraded and produced a battle mage the next turn. I now think it is worth the risk of a 60 hammer unit to get a really good mage in a few turns rather than wait 30 or more turns for unit to gain the exp passively with potency. The combination of ritualists and the way the AI moves its units makes this a viable way to get mages quickly.

The battle mages were extremely powerful in this game as there were lots of mana nodes to boost the spectres. I also managed to get several more mana sources by trading with other civs including my capitulated ones (shadow, law from Flauros) (death from Valledia) using lots of happiness and health resources that the Infernals don't need anyway. Spectres are particularly good for summoners as the mages can effectively maintain 2 spectres at once. Also for demons the Sundered promotion for the mage gives the Stigmata promotion to its summons and when the AC is say 70, that's a +35% damage bonus, better than 3 combat promotions worth of Empower promotions. At the end after I built the Tower of Necromancy my spectres were strength 10 (4 + 6 death) and had +100% strength from promotions (stigmata, empower 4 and Enchanted Blade) and these spectres were able to kill angels fortified in a city with 30% defences. As they were expendable I didn't even need to use Ring of Flames to soften the defenders, just send more spectres.

The profanes could summon Balors and these bad boys were even more obscene than the spectres if a bit more short ranged (move 1 instead of 3). Summoned in the open they were 11/7 and had the same +100% strength from promotions and able to beat nearly anything 1 v 1. If they were summoned in or entered a city they get iron weapons and became 13/9. And like the mages a Summoner profane can have 2 of them around at once. In my game the spectres were very strong (due to 6 death mana) but if there were less death nodes then the Balors would be even more useful.

The tally of dead enemies was 59 angels, 46 treant, 42 swords, 30 warrior, 25 dwarf slinger, 14 catapult and about 200 assorted others and 9 AI heroes

Finally a mention of Hyborem who was ultra powerful in this game: strength 24/21 with +120% strength + shock + stigmata and had 99.9% odds against nearly everything. He slew Basium in single combat (95% odds) and later Ars Moriendi (99.9%) and ended with 189 exp. Orthus axe, mobility and march meant he could attack stacks 3 times per turn. He was impressive :)
 
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Hey there, I'm glad that this thread inspired a fun game for you;)

The combination of ritualists and the way the AI moves its units makes this a viable way to get mages quickly.

What units do you mean? horses?

Finally a mention of Hyborem who was ultra powerful in this game: strength 24/21 with +120% strength + shock + stigmata and had 99.9% odds against nearly everything. He slew Basium in single combat (95% odds) and later Ars Moriendi (99.9%) and ended with 189 exp. Orthus axe, mobility and march meant he could attack stacks 3 times per turn. He was impressive :)

I'm pretty sure that Hyborem eventually died of laughing after you turned off your computer:) How about Rosier? how could you not play with him? Poor and despised Rosier...:shake:
 
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What units do you mean? horses?
I meant a variety of units in three different situations. That is part of what I meant by AI silliness in my last post, they seemed pretty eager to throw away their units in futile attacks or poor choice of route.

Throughout the game the AIs, particularly Tasunke and Basium who have Raider, invaded my territory with single chariots and horsemen attacking my axemen and archers that were guarding my workers. Whether they were successful or not I could wipe out these units out next turn with my own axemen, chariots or even a Beast of Agares I kept back as a reserve. But if they were weak enough then these raiders were an ideal target for my savant to kill and get some combat experience and hence level up to mage quicker.

Another situation occured when Arendel Phaedra declared war on me twice (bribed by Beeri I suspect). Each time she sent a pathetic stack of about 12 units; hunters, swords (bronze) and tigers into my territory with a stonewarden. My main stack consisting of Hyborem and his Malevolent friends almost fell over laughing. Plus I had ritualists, axemen (iron) and chariots for back up. At the end of the combat I could often find a weak target or two for my savants to take out. Using a ritualist to weaken them and maybe borrowing Gela for a combat meant a savant could take on a swordsman with very good odds. Arendel's attacks were stupid and both times she made peace afterwards giving me some useful techs.

And then I would send savants along with my main SoD when it was in enemy territory and capturing / razing their cities. Several times the AI would move a weak unit right next to my stack, including dwarve slingers, zealots, warriors. These units were on their way to some other city or counter invading my territory or something, but they were completely oblivious of the presence of my main stack which was 100's of times more powerful and they ended their move right next to it. The result is obviously their demise, and often I could use a savant to finish them off.

At the end of the game I had promoted 13 savants to mages and only one had done it the long slow way waiting for the Potency promotion to gain the 8 exp needed. That means I found 12 combats suitable for promoting a savant. That is the learning point I took from this game. It is quite feasible to rely on combat to rapidly promote your disciple units (savants => mage, disciple of leaves => ranger or beastmaster, zealot => Stygian) as long as the AI continues to play as it does.

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Another concern I have about AI behaviour is the way it handles its heroes. In this game Basium was thrown away by killing an axemen in my territory (who had in turn just killed a raiding chariot). The axemen did slightly wound Basium, but I had my main stack nearby and would have willingly sacrificed a Beast of Agares or an Eidolon to give favourable odds, if needed. But they weren't needed and Hyborem easily (95% odds) killed Basium, using only Gela and a Golden Axe at that stage. Basium should not have been used alone, on flat terrain, when there are powerful enemy forces nearby. I also killed Barnaxus and Bambur in similar circumstances although both had weak units with them. Flauros did better with Losha Valas, I had to kill about 5 units before she fell, but she was still moved near to my main SoD containing Hyborem and 6 of his Malevolent friends and several ritualists which was about 10 times as strong.

This has happened in my other FfH2 games and I am sure it is not a particualr failing of Tholal's AI as it used to happen before. Somehow the AI needs to value it's heroes and other special units more and not put them in risky situations. It is disappointing to be able to kill the AI heroes so easily.

I'm pretty sure that Hyborem eventually died of laughing after you turned off your computer:) How about Rosier? how could you not play with him? Poor and despised Rosier...:shake:

I played that part of the game before you posted your corresponding part and I made the mistake of building a temple and 2 ritualists in Dis while attacking the Lanun. Meanwhile the Lanun had built Rosier, and predictably he was the first hero that the AI sacrificed on his lonesome. A ritualist blast and Hyborem put paid to him as he tried to sneak behind my main SoD. Not building him was one of many mistakes I made in the game but it was still thoroughly enjoyable and a great learning opportunity :)
 
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