Why I hate enemy caravels

[TheCrumbster]

In my latest game, the enemy civilizations seemed to produce a large amount of caravels which were roaming the oceans. Even though I was in the Industrial era and had a huge army just waiting to conquer the other continents, the threat of an enemy caravel easily destroying my land units kept me confined until I could build up a decent navy. What do you guys do to counter this? Personally, I think that naval units from the previous era should not be able to destroy land units simply by moving over them. Forget about UBoats, if the Germans had Columbus and Megellan on their side the allied convoys wouldn't have a chance!

 

[headcase]

Build a navy, attack in your continent, or bide your time *evil laugh*

 

[Louis XXIV]

I counter it by building a navy. Seek and destroy the enemy.

 

[TheCrumbster]

I wish naval units could be moved over land units like in Civ 4, or if they auto attacked approaching enemy naval units. Sometimes those caravels seem to come out of no where .

 

[Ranos]

That's the risk of invading another continent. Instead of building so many land units and neglecting your navy, if you plan on invading across the ocean, keep your navy built up and don't let the enemy caravels become so numerous.

 

[turtlefang]

No different than controlling barbs - population control. You have to make sure that they die by building the units to kill them. Two or three destroyers will wipe out dozens of caravels. And if you have an airforce to go with that army, then it will help control them near the coast.

 

[erhaminus]

Anyway, imho there is no sense when caravel (sailing ship) scuttles a motor ship. The motor ship can easily avoid this.

They could assume that industrial/modern transport (after discovery of engine) ships are armed somehow and able to defend against obsolete units (or, for example: +25% chance of retrait after steam power, +50% chance of retrait after combustion, vs obsolete ofc -- move spent on retrait would be already consumed in the next turn).

 

[blightmoon]

I think this is a way to avoid rendering navies entirely useless. I mean if the AI invested in those early navies which the player doesn't have and yet the player tries to cross the ocean, that's just an investment that paid off isn't it?

 

[Olleus]

Wait, so you're saying that the game forces you to build naval units to invade another continent?

That's crazy! How dare they do that!

 

[fmlizard2]

Navy is already way underutilized in this game. I consider the requirement of building at least a rudimentary escort navy to be a step forward for Civ 5.

 

[ipris]

Wait, so you're saying that the game forces you to build naval units to invade another continent?

That's crazy! How dare they do that!

pretty much this.

also if you want to laugh play a pangea map and enjoy the AI building up their caravels.

 

[TomMcV]

yeah and if you're worried about the accuracy of small sailing/wooden ships taking out transport freighters take a look at the horn of Africa - Somalia is THE unchecked caravel producing city state

 

[blightmoon]

I'd even go so far as to permit only 1 movement on oceans for land units even with the tech that unlocks the ability to cross oceans. (and maybe +1 move more for another exploration tech). For me, land units crossing oceans is simply ridiculous. Imagining infantry battalions (tanks even) swimming to the other side of the Pacific, is just too unreal.

If anything, I'd suggest using a currently existing mod that adds carrier vessels to the game. This allows even early units to cross coastal tiles (and ocean tiles later on) with much less worry about being killed by enemy navies (especially barbarians). More over, it's realistic too.

 

[Ranos]

I'd even go so far as to permit only 1 movement on oceans for land units even with the tech that unlocks the ability to cross oceans. (and maybe +1 move more for another exploration tech). For me, land units crossing oceans is simply ridiculous. Imagining infantry battalions (tanks even) swimming to the other side of the Pacific, is just too unreal.

Really? Every game I've ever played, the unit graphics turn from whatever unit they are into civilian transports of that era. I have never seen graphics of Infantry or Tanks swimming across the ocean.

Instead of having to build separate trasnport ships, the assumption is that transport ships are available and the troops board them when they get to the ocean.

If anything, I'd suggest using a currently existing mod that adds carrier vessels to the game. This allows even early units to cross coastal tiles (and ocean tiles later on) with much less worry about being killed by enemy navies (especially barbarians). More over, it's realistic too.

This is a computer game, not real life. Realism has no meaning. The game is based on real history, but that's as far as it goes.

And throughout history, transport ships have needed to be defended by military vessels. The only difference now is that instead of having a short battle in which an attacking destroyer still kills a transport, that is just passed and the troops die. Plus, instead of losing multiple units when a trasnport is sunk, you now only lose one unit.

 

[blightmoon]

Instead of having to build separate trasnport ships, the assumption is that transport ships are available and the troops board them when they get to the ocean.

This largely devalues navies. For gameplay balance, I believe it's a good direction to go for. That navies take an entirely different and awkward tech path is actually what makes having to devote science/turns/gold/hammers to navies less agreeable to some. I want the tech path changed too, but as of now, if people play on maps they know will have oceans, why won't they build a proper navy?

This is a computer game, not real life. Realism has no meaning. The game is based on real history, but that's as far as it goes.

How far does the game have to go on being based on real history?

As far as it has gone to have been reflected in the game as of now, less than that, or more than that? It's quite subjective and if I'm not mistakened, the game aims to be immersive. Let's talk about gameplay and realism trade offs, instead.

Add: maybe what you are against is that the transport ships will be able to defend/attack quite well, like it's caravels carrying troops. The mod I'm talking about makes transport ships that have very low power that it's good really just for transporting troops. Try it out first. It's not my mod. I just stumbled upon it, tried it and enjoyed using it since. I have to add too that even with that mod, since I largely play on Terra map setting, I still have little use for navies. Nevertheless, I think having those transport ships are quite fun to have in the game. And it's the fun that matters, right?

 

[Callonia]

God forbid you shall sail your troops in defenseless vessels unopposed across the ocean to bushwhack someone the easy way.

No, man up and build ships to protect your navy. I've had an small naval battle against the french in one of the games but it did largely determine that my landing will succeed.

Well it was like 20 battleships and 60 destroyers and 12 subs and like 22 aircraft carriers with fighters/bombers on them against 20 battleships and unknown amount of destroyers xD

 

[qemist]

This is a computer game, not real life. Realism has no meaning. The game is based on real history, but that's as far as it goes.

Of course "realism" has meaning. It means accurate representation of reality. A computer game is a form of representation. Of course perfect realism would make the game a sort of historical film with no choices, and it would cease to be a game. A more relevant concept is verisimilitude -- the degree to which it looks believable. People rightly expect a game whose creators pose it the way c5 is posed to convey the feeling that the player is immersed in the times the game represents.

And throughout history, transport ships have needed to be defended by military vessels. The only difference now is that instead of having a short battle in which an attacking destroyer still kills a transport, that is just passed and the troops die. Plus, instead of losing multiple units when a trasnport is sunk, you now only lose one unit.

Warships destroying defenceless boats instantly isn't unrealistic (adding some screams might help, though). Every land unit being able to insta-build a single transport of exactly the right size wherever it may be is a little.

 

[dexters]

God forbid you shall sail your troops in defenseless vessels unopposed across the ocean to bushwhack someone the easy way.

No, man up and build ships to protect your navy. I've had an small naval battle against the french in one of the games but it did largely determine that my landing will succeed.

Well it was like 20 battleships and 60 destroyers and 12 subs and like 22 aircraft carriers with fighters/bombers on them against 20 battleships and unknown amount of destroyers xD

Civ3? ??

 

[turtlefang]

Being forced to build a token navy to escort an invasion force isn't unreasonable even against caravels. A few destroyers will sweep the seas of them in a few turns.

So if your going to invade, yes, I would expect you would have to escort the invasion force. If not, and your troops get sunk, even by triremes, tough, your out of luck.

As far as the lack of transport ships, I didn't think I would like it at first. But I do. It just eliminates one more unit that's only used in very limited circumstances that ends up cluttering up production, supply, and keeping track of where/when it is for an invasion. I applaud whomever came up the transport rule we're now using. And this is coming from a micromanagement freak.

 

[Agamemnus]

Warships destroying defenceless boats instantly isn't unrealistic (adding some screams might help, though). Every land unit being able to insta-build a single transport of exactly the right size wherever it may be is a little.

It's grossly unrealistic when you consider some guys on a trireme having nothing but some arrows and maybe a few swordsmen can destroy tanks sitting on a transport.


...or a helicopter. Ugh. Happened to me once. AI had built a trireme and a caravel on a lake (one turn before I was going to take their capital), and I accidentally moved a helicopter onto it. Ugh. It's just as realistic as a half-strength assault helicopter unit getting destroyed by a cannon barrage or a bomber actually being blown out of the sky by a late 1800s era cannon.