SGOTM 15 - One Short Straw

Not to brag (typically followed by bragging, right?) but I'll be headed to Las Vega$ tomorrow evening for a weekend of drinking, gambling, cigars, football and debauchery with buddies from far and wide. From there, I'm headed to the east coast for work. This means that I'll be out of pocket for at least the weekend (if I'm on CFC over the weekend I'm either broke or on my death bed in the room) and limited availability until next Friday.

Unless I see Dhoomstriker steering us down the wrong path, like some kind of Cultural victory or something ;), I'll be maintaining radio silence until at least Monday. I will, however, be around for about 24 more hours, so if you plan on trying to sneak something past me, wait until tomorrow night!
 
I agree. As an initial PPP, I'd propose we go AH at 100% and see what happens in 3t. The Gems warrior would defog the coast to the S/SE, tentatively en route to fogbusting for the G1E settler. The Toku warrior hangs loose for 3t hoping to train Fast Slave. The new warrior in Delhi goes NW, defogging the coastal tiles N of the pigs and then onward.

MM would be max hammers, I suppose, for lack of a reason to go otherwise.

RSVP, one and all!!!

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One other detail I've noticed with settling G1E is that the worker can farm both the corn and the fp, although farming the fp delays the gold/sheep by 1t. I think it's worth it to give us the extra 1cpt going forward and also the potential to grow at 8fpt instead of 7fpt.
 
I approve.

I was struggling with the FP farm MM as well. I was leaving it 5/7 farmed, which was a pity because I was leaving 1C/turn on the table for a long time until I finally got a worker over there to complete the final 2 turns of farming. Delaying the gold mine may not be an issue if we want to grow Gold first because in my game, the gold mine sat unworked for 2 or 3 turns IIRC. If we decide to improve the sheep first, then we would delay Gold growing...

In any event, this decision comes after LC's proposed mini-turnset, so we can work out the optimal MM later.
 
Just to clarify, by "max hammers" you mean max food-hammers, right? It may be best to turn on the governor because he'll switch to the corn farm on the turn it's completed. I'm sure that you'd do it manually, but it's a good backup. You could miss it during your I-Stole-Toku's-Worker happy dance.

And, to beat Dhoomstriker to the punch, when possible, avoid stepping next to a forest. I had a lot of forest growth in my two tests; 3 in one game and 2 in the other in the span of 50ish turns. I know that the chance of growth on any give square is infinitesimally small, but over the course of a game it could lead to an extra .25 forests grown.
 
LowtherCastle said:
I'd propose we go AH at 100%
I'm fine with that approach as long as we will be able to stay at a 100% Science Rate until Animal Husbandry is completely learned. If we can't do that, then we might as well take a turn of 0% Science Rate now.

Will we gain any bonus Flasks for the fact that Toku knows Animal Husbandry?


LowtherCastle said:
MM would be max hammers
I don't have Civ 4 access so I'm a bit lost as to what that means, since I'm not sure what our current City Size and build item are... are we already building a Settler? If not, is the idea to grow ASAP but to put as many grains of Food as possible into Hammers when we do grow? Are you even saying that you might delay growth by a turn just to get more Hammers?


Mitchum said:
In any event, this decision comes after LC's proposed mini-turnset, so we can work out the optimal MM later.
Normally, I am not a fan of this type of approach since moving forward usually limits your options more than it opens them up. That said, since no one else wanted to go for Judaism via learning Polytheism, and since you guys seem to be heavily leaning toward settling the Corn in favour of the Deer for the Gold City, I'm okay with skipping Hunting.

If we're skipping both Polytheism and Hunting, then Animal Husbandry seems like a good bet for our next tech.


Mitchum said:
over the course of a game it could lead to an extra .25 forests grown.
Now it just sounds like you are mocking me! ;)

I admit that it does matter more when you're parking a spawn-buster than walking around, but all else being equal, you might as well try and get those free Hammers. :D

It's the cases where it's not equal--i.e. if you may need to defend from a Barb and you have the choice of standing on a Hills square next to a Forest versus on a Grassland that is not next to a Forest--where I defer to the "what makes sense to do ignoring Forest growth chances" line of thinking and only when the options are otherwise equal will I really push for trying to increase our Forest growth chances.
 
AH first is fine by me. I definitely like the FP farm - if we don't do any growing until it's done, we can then grow 2 pop in 6 turns.

On t23 I'd like the warrior to be in position to move away if the worker ain't coming. Just something to bear in mind.

I have time for testing on Sunday, and sporadically through the week.

Good luck, LC.
 
@Dhoom

I'm not mocking you at all. All things being equal, not hindering forest growth is a smart thing to do. To me, Civ is made up of a lot of tiny, seemingly insignificant actions that can and do actually add up to being quite significant over the course of a whole game... or the course of four games in the case of 0.25 forests... :D

Fyi, 0.25 was a brown number. i.e. I pulled it out of my a$$ :lol:
 
Normally, I am not a fan of this type of approach since moving forward usually limits your options more than it opens them up. That said, since no one else wanted to go for Judaism via learning Polytheism, and since you guys seem to be heavily leaning toward settling the Corn in favour of the Deer for the Gold City, I'm okay with skipping Hunting.

I agree that it's typically better to have things planned out a bit better. The biggest issue seems to be that the team is losing interest and no one is doing much testing. Once we have a bit more info in the next 3 turns, it's possible that the testing will start in earnest... :mischief:

In addition, we can still settle Gold-1N to capture the deer. We would have to stop researching AH mid-stream and switch to hunting. In the end, we'd end up losing the 20% bonus on three turns of AH research if we do end up switching. Not a huge loss, I guess..
 
Not sure I understand the warrior moves. Are we intending to explore around the gold/deer site? Why is the Gems warrior going SE, and not NNW?

The FP farm should definitely be finished. If it means we're a turn late somewhere else, so be it.
 
The Gems lion is the main problem. We can mostly avoid the lion by having the Hammy warrior defog the relevant coastal tiles above the pigs (except for the fat cross tile if we were settling on the pigs, which we're not, no matter what, right?). He'll be able to avoid the lion while doing this.

The Gems warrior has defogging to do to the SE that was skipped and he's needed to defog for he Gold settler, if we're settling Gold on T33.

The gold/deer site will get partially defogged in 3t when our culture expands onto the mountains. The Toku warrior will stay put hoping for a worker steal for 4t, then Toku's culture epxands, rendering it impossible for the time being, and that warrior will need to head toward the gold to fogbust, if we're going to settle T33, otherwise he's completely free to defog the entire gld area.
 
PD finally played a long 42-turn set. It's hard to say if they went religion or Agriculture first. The fact that they dipped below Xteam's culture, which we're pretty much tracking, makes it appear that they either researched Poly rather than Meditation or they squeezed in another tech first. Anyone want to :scan:
 
I'm fine with that approach as long as we will be able to stay at a 100% Science Rate until Animal Husbandry is completely learned. If we can't do that, then we might as well take a turn of 0% Science Rate now.

Will we gain any bonus Flasks for the fact that Toku knows Animal Husbandry?



I don't have Civ 4 access so I'm a bit lost as to what that means, since I'm not sure what our current City Size and build item are... are we already building a Settler? If not, is the idea to grow ASAP but to put as many grains of Food as possible into Hammers when we do grow? Are you even saying that you might delay growth by a turn just to get more Hammers?



Normally, I am not a fan of this type of approach since moving forward usually limits your options more than it opens them up. That said, since no one else wanted to go for Judaism via learning Polytheism, and since you guys seem to be heavily leaning toward settling the Corn in favour of the Deer for the Gold City, I'm okay with skipping Hunting.

If we're skipping both Polytheism and Hunting, then Animal Husbandry seems like a good bet for our next tech.



Now it just sounds like you are mocking me! ;)

I admit that it does matter more when you're parking a spawn-buster than walking around, but all else being equal, you might as well try and get those free Hammers. :D

It's the cases where it's not equal--i.e. if you may need to defend from a Barb and you have the choice of standing on a Hills square next to a Forest versus on a Grassland that is not next to a Forest--where I defer to the "what makes sense to do ignoring Forest growth chances" line of thinking and only when the options are otherwise equal will I really push for trying to increase our Forest growth chances.
We'll be able to complete AH on T32, a turn early, so the settler will have moved 2t closer to the gold, but will still be able to go anywhere. So I said MM max hammers, because we could exchange a coin for a hammer for the next 2-3t until the corn is finished. That wouldn't help with anything, so I think the 2-3 hammers might be more useful at this point. The short answer is, no, we don't gain a beaker from Toku knowing AH. [With 1 AI out of 10 original players, we only gain beakers on 20% techs at certain base-beakers (8, 13, 17, 18, ...).] We will gain a beaker on Hunting and TW when we start working the gold or gems tile (2 AIs knowing tech, base-beakers > 15).

Delhi has just grown to pop2 and we'll start building a settler eta = T30, eta gems1N or gold1E = T33, eta gold1N = T34.

Your idea of testing where Toku might settle next is a good one, but I don't think there's anyone who wants to do it. With some certainty about that, we could delay Gold till ~T43. What's at stake is some amount of beakers, because Gems will probably have a cpt lower maintenance and the gems mine could be worked starting 2-3 sooner. But there are some trade-offs.

* Building Gold sooner fogbusts better because the Gems area will be largely fogbusted by our border expansion in 3t. I'd like to avoid barbs spawning if at all possible. A barb archer can prove costly in hammers spent on warriors at this point. They'll start spawning when 4 more cities get settled, worldwide.

* Gold gives certainty that we get that site.

* Gold sooner means we could build SH at a site where the 100:culture: expansion will be very useful against both Toku expansion and barbs.

* Gold1E will later get corn and will be able to work a lot of hammers, so it would nicely prebuild GW for failed gold. This alone may pay back the cost of beakers lost from not Gems first.

* Both cities can build a fogbuster in 5t, but Gold builds it where closer to where we need it.

* Gold first argues for AH first, exposing any horses. TW next speeds up Gems first by 1t and gets it connected early for possible autospread and TRs. TW doesn't help Gold get settled sooner but should be done by the time the worker is available to connect Delhi.

* AH first gives the worker time to 6/7ths finish the fp farm, with the last turn delaying the gold mine by 1t. TW first leaves the fp farm 3/7ths complete indefinitely in favor of roading to connect Gems.

So it's a juggling act, deciding what's best. My inclination is to go for failed gold aggressively while REXing. bbp and perhaps others strongly want to stake our claim against Toku. So the ideal decision seems to be GOld first. Since we can delay the start of hunting for 3t, we can wait for border expansion to see if we'd prefer to settle G1N or G1E.
 
Dhoom's AH question reminded me that we can figure out if AI we know have completed techs we haven't yet, at least to some extent. I can confirm that only one of Toku/Hammy knows AH and neither know Masonry or BW. We'll have to wait till we're working the gold mine to figure out Fishing.
 
Kakumeika opted for Poly, perhaps to preserve the Astro bulb. They also grew to pop2 a turn faster than we did.
 
Okay, my impression is that we're in agreement on playing forward 3t so I'll do that and see what happens.
 
TURNSET REPORT T20-T23 (uploaded)

Nothing special.

No worker at Toku. No juicy stuff revealed north of the gold. Nothing north of the pigs. North of the mountains we see a 1-tile-wide path of coastal (1f1c) tiles with another mountain range beyond.... A lion is blocking our Hammy warrior's path, so that might be slow going.

Toku's borders won't expand for 2t but his worker still has to get through the forest, so I think our warrior is free to explore northward. Only if he happened to revolt, but I don't think he has anything to revolt to.

Tokyo grew to pop3 and he's working 2f1h. Toku seems to have completed an archer, so he'll be able to start building a settler. I think we made the right decision to settle Goldward. Should we continue with our plans to settle G1E and continue the AH?
 
 

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RE: Toku's Worker
Could Toku feasibly learn Bronze Working and revolt to Slavery, giving us a shot at his Worker?

Another possibility is that he has 3 Flood Plains Gold Mines on the east side of his capital so his Worker might not even arrive...

Yet another possibility is that perhaps his Worker could arrive if he used his early knowledge of The Wheel to have built a Road network that he might walk on... I don't know if we can rule out this possibility or not since, once again, I don't currently have Civ 4 access (but I hope to get it sometime in the coming week).


Teching
I'm fine with sticking with Animal Husbandry. Now that we've decided not to go for The Wheel or Hunting, it does kind of make sense to get the Corn with the Gold... particularly since:
a) the Corn and the Fish can't be combined into a single City
AND
b) The Deer cna be used with the Cow for a decent production City
AND
c) We can always settle a filler City later (Toku might do it for us) to share the Corn and use said filler City to work additional Grassland Hills squares


City 2
So, I'm fine with targeting Gold-1E as being City 2 and spawn-busting it appropriately. As I said above, unless you can conclusively say that Toku's Worker won't arrive, I think that I'd still rather hang around until his Cultural Borders expand... it's probably a lost hope but I wouldn't mind trying... let's just hope that in trying, we don't end up having too many nasty Barb units spawning in the Gold-1E area.


My Suggested Priorities
Thus, my priority would be: trying to get Toku's Warrior, followed by providing solid spawn-busting coverage for the Gold-1E City location.

In that way, we might as well stay researching Animal Husbandry.

I also agree with a conservative approach around Lions... only fight them if we need to, since:
a) Lions staying alive will spawn-bust Barb Humans from appearing and we never have to worry about Barb Animals coming into our Cultural Borders
AND
b) the more fights that we can avoid in favour of spawn-busting the arrival of additional Barb units, the better. We don't tend to have very good luck versus Barbs using our Warriors (think of the death of Toto last game even though we had greater than 90% odds of winning the fight) and we're not going to get anywhere close to unlocking the Heroic Epic with using our Warriors to fight. Far better to keep 1 more spawn-buster alive and thereby execute further spawn-busting than to lose that unit and then have to face even more Barb units from the resulting gap in spawn-busting
 
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