Leaders

[Seek]

Gold bonus if first to discover a Natural Wonder; free caravel with Astronomy.

Talk about luck! What if Spain is never first to discover a NW (which is pretty likely) - they just get a free Caravel for their UA? I'd say keep the double yields, give a scaled bonus to discovering NWs at any time, and a free Caravel.

 

[Txurce]

Talk about luck! What if Spain is never first to discover a NW (which is pretty likely) - they just get a free Caravel for their UA? I'd say keep the double yields, give a scaled bonus to discovering NWs at any time, and a free Caravel.

Note that I responded to Thal's request, as opposed to endorsing it. What I did endorse, and you commented on, is exactly what you're proposing, minus the possibly lucky, mostly irrelevant double-yield bonus.

You can roll back that tongue now!

PS: If you want to stir up trouble, why don't you rejoin the tile-purchase conversation?

 

[wobuffet]

I'd say keep the double yields, give a scaled bonus to discovering NWs at any time, and a free Caravel.

+1.

50 for finding a NW in the first couple turns seems a bit too low though; I'd bump that up a bit (exponent seems fine though).

 

[Seek]

Note that I responded to Thal's request, as opposed to endorsing it. What I did endorse, and you commented on, is exactly what you're proposing, minus the possibly lucky, mostly irrelevant double-yield bonus.

You can roll back that tongue now!

PS: If you want to stir up trouble, why don't you rejoin the tile-purchase conversation?

Will do!

 

[EmperorFool]

50 for finding a NW in the first couple turns seems a bit too low though; I'd bump that up a bit (exponent seems fine though).

This is why I proposed doubling it if you're first to discover it. If you discover it early, you'll get 100. Later in the game where you probably aren't first, you'll get the regular amounts Thal posted above.

 

[wobuffet]

This is why I proposed doubling it if you're first to discover it. If you discover it early, you'll get 100. Later in the game where you probably aren't first, you'll get the regular amounts Thal posted above.

I don't like the "first to find" mechanic at all, even for City-States: too much luck. Yes, where you spawn relative to the Natural Wonders involves a lot of luck too, but that's a more fun kind of luck (because at least you have some control over what regions of the map you explore).

I also agree with Seek that the double NW yields are the most fun aspect of Spain's UA, even if it's a bit luck-based. Heck, if possible, I'd say throw in a Gold or Culture bonus when Spain gains territory containing a NW via war or Culture bombing.

 

[Thalassicus]

So replace the scout with a caravel?

What would be the best way to explain that in a short sentence? I'm getting sleepy.

I realize now my use of the word "that" was ambiguous. What I meant to say was...

"What would be the best way to explain your preferred Spain bonus in a short sentence?"

 

[mitsho]

Gold on Discovery of and Double Yields from Natural Wonders; Free Scout at Start and Free Caravel at Astronomy.

Or else

Gold on Discovery of and Double Yields from Natural Wonders; Free Scout and Trireme at Start

I don't think it really matters all that much. Trireme is stronger than Caravel and the text is shorter. And I don't think the UA is too strong with these 4 bonusses. Spain gets two free units, Germany gets many more...

 

[Txurce]

This works well enough for me. That double yields for a NW are in the same "luck" stratum as additional gold for being first-to-find bothers me only in principle. In reality I think it will be a relatively minor factor.

 

[Thalassicus]

When looking through the events I discovered Events.NaturalWonderRevealed

I've found this event unfortunately only runs for the active human player, so we cannot fix the natural wonder gold bonus to scale to era.

 

[Babri]

I feel that Korea UA is quite OP & they have great UUs too especially Hwacha. Compare it with Otto UA. They give double yield (2 compared to 1 of Otto), on top of that u get tech boost whenever u build science buildings. I think that maybe u need to change that a bit or maybe change Otto UA because both are quite similar. In my last game on prince the Korean AI was way ahead of other civs technologically due to these OP boosts, I have never seen Babylon AIs to be so ahead of their time. I think the problem lies in their OP tech boost & they are a very difficult nut to break with their great Hwachas.
And my second request is about Genghis Khan's AI. Is there any way to make it suck less ? He never seems to build their Keshliks & always get their butts kicked.
I would be glad if u increase his likeness to create Keshliks & other mounted units. I know Ai war tactics is the fundamental problem here but still I think it is possible with current tools to make certain AIs more likely to build certain units.

 

[Txurce]

I feel that Korea UA is quite OP... They give double yield (2 compared to 1 of Otto), on top of that u get tech boost whenever u build science buildings.

Korea gives higher yields in science - Ottomans get a lower yield for all specialists. And the tech boost comes only with buildings built in the capital.

In my last game on prince the Korean AI was way ahead of other civs technologically due to these OP boosts, I have never seen Babylon AIs to be so ahead of their time.

Were you playing with v131.6 or earlier? If so, Korea was bugged and getting excessive happiness-boosted science.

 

[Thalassicus]

Korea and the Ottomans both get a yield boost to all specialists; the Korean trait is more than twice as powerful.

 

[Txurce]

Both Korea and the Ottomans get a yield boost to all specialists. The Korean trait is more than twice as powerful.

I don't think that's what the UA description says.

Edit:

Scholars of the Jade Hall
Specialists yield +2 Science
Great Person Improvements yield +2 Science
A tech boost is awarded whenever a Science building or Wonder is completed at the Capital

 

[Thalassicus]

Korean Trait

"+2 [ICON_RESEARCH] Science for all specialists and Great Person improvements. Receive a tech boost each time a scientific building/Wonder is built in the Korean capital."

+2 Scientist
+2 Merchant
+2 Engineer
+2 Artist

+2 Academy
+2 Customs House
+2 Manufactury
+2 Landmark

Each science building or wonder constructed in the capital gives equal to the cost of the technology which unlocks that building/wonder.
​

Ottoman Trait

"+1 yield from specialists."

+1 Scientist
+1 Merchant
+1 Engineer
+1 Artist​

 

[Txurce]

These are the total bonuses:

Korean Trait
+2 Scientist
+2 Merchant
+2 Engineer
+2 Artist
+2 Academy
+2 Customs House
+2 Manufactury
+2 Landmark
Science boost from each science building in the capital.

Ottoman Trait
+1 Scientist
+1 Merchant
+1 Engineer
+1 Artist

That doesn't look "more than twice as powerful" to me - especially in an actual game, where Korea is unlikely to have a bunch of workers in specialist slots other than the science ones. The Ottomans' advantage (as the OCC GOTM helped illustrate) is that it is highly adaptive, giving an edge in almost any direction you choose to go - while Korea's is limited to science.

 

[Thalassicus]

"The Korean trait is more than twice as numerically powerful" is what I mean. However, just because the trait has higher numbers doesn't necessarily mean the leader is better overall. I don't have enough personal experience to say one way or the other.

I tend to avoid balancing leaders based solely on AI performance. The AI handles some leader characteristics (like the passive Korean bonus) better than others. As you pointed out, the Ottoman trait requires adaptation, something the AI is not good at.

 

[Txurce]

The AI handles some leader characteristics (like the passive Korean bonus) better than others. As you pointed out, the Ottoman trait requires adaptation, something the AI is not good at.

I agree with both these appraisals on the face of it. In actual play, the Ottomans often finish in the top 25-50% - second-rate Persians, you might say, on a par with the Iroquois. Korea finishes strongly when they play aggressively, but rarely shine when they turtle; Babylon definitely outperforms them overall in my games.

More and more I think the primary correlation between AI success and failure is out-of-control population. This obviously applies to the civs with some population advantage (including conquest!) but also to the ones who for some reason target Maritimes from the start. (Are you aware how often this happens?)

 

[Sneaks]

Opportunities have given me a new idea for the Ottomans which still fits into the Governance ideal.

Each city founded or recently courthoused by the Ottomans will trigger an Opportunity event. The event allows you to choose a Bey to govern the city at a cost of 1/turn. Example:

Sultan, who shall we appoint to govern the city of Ankara?
- Appoint Beyazid (+5% in city. 1/turn)
- Appoint Gedik Ahmed (+5% in city. 1/turn)
- Appoint Rum Mehmed (+5% in city. 1/turn)
- Appoint Halil Hamid (+5% in city. 1/turn)
- Let the ministers handle this. (No effect)

At population 10, you have the option of promoting the Bey to Vizier at an additional cost of 5/turn for an addition 5% boost to the yield for a total of 10%.
At population 20, you have the option of promoting the Vizier to Grand Vizier at an additional cost of 10/turn for an addition 10% boost to the yield for a total of 20%

This trait allows for some seriously awesome playstyle possibilities while reeling in gold (ideal for AI control).

Thoughts?

 

[Txurce]

The idea is fantastic: a much more active-feeling and possibly more powerful version of Governance.

I don't know one way or the other about the values: my feeling is they should be anywhere from equivalent to somewhat better than the present +1 yields for specialists. I really like them scaling up as the cities grow - again, more action - and assume it never becomes OP.

An aside: it seems to encourage tall play.

A potential wrinkle: allow the freedom to switch ministers at each stage.

My only quibble is: to what degree is it really like an Opportunity? There's no real choice, since you would always choose one.

PS: Thal, what's happening with the bifurcating of the German trait so the Ottomans get their traditional galley fleet?