Liberty Finisher

[EmperorFool]

I founded two cities and then worked through the Liberty policy branch to completion. I had a Settler waiting to found a new city.

1. With one policy left in the branch, I needed 650 for the next policy.
2. After taking the final policy in the branch, I needed 850 for the next policy.
3. After founding the next city that same turn, I needed 900 for the next policy.

Am I misunderstanding the finisher's description that "Developing new cities does not slow the rate you acquire policies"?

Versions: GEM v1.053 and CivUP v34

 

[mystikx21]

It's a little vague and thus inaccurate.

Thal explained it as closer to "founding a city with an amphitheater does not slow the rate of policies", which is what "developing new cities" could mean versus founding them. (That explanation is still inaccurate, but much closer to what it does).

What it actually does is reduce the cost of new cities on policies by 20% and does not reduce the cost of founding a new city to zero on policy accumulation.

 

[EmperorFool]

How does building an Amphitheater affect this? All I see is +6 on it--nothing about decreasing the amount required for each successive policy. Is there a missing "-10% required for the next policy" effect in the hover?

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

it means you'll break even at +5 culture in the new cities

 

[EmperorFool]

Oh. I guess I don't quite understand how the number of cities affects the cost of each next policy. Given that the effect is a percentage of the cost, how can a fixed +5 counter it forever?

 

[Zaldron]

Oh. I guess I don't quite understand how the number of cities affects the cost of each next policy. Given that the effect is a percentage of the cost, how can a fixed +5 counter it forever?

It's very approximate. He's not saying that the *cost* of policies isn't affected, but that once you have a monolith and amphitheater the *rate* at which you acquire policies is approximately the same. It's not exact.

 

[Ahriman]

For each new city you have, the cost of social policies goes up by 25%. With the policy, it only goes up by 20%. [25% and 20% might be wrong, but it is something like that; 20% is a 1/5 smaller penalty than 25%.]

Its hard to describe the exact effect on a brief tooltip; the existing language is a decent attempt at a summary.

 

[Thalassicus]

The problem with the old tooltip "20% lower policy cost per city" is most people don't know how to use that information to guide their actions. It took me weeks of research to figure out how culture income and costs interact to affect policy rate. It was also misleading because Civ 5 adds percentages instead of multiplying them. If the base policy cost is say... 100 culture... then a 25% increase goes 125 150 175 200 etc. Casual players would probably think the percentages multiply, going 125 156 195 244, because that's how percentages usually work. Since the cost increase is a fixed amount per city, a city which can offset the cost with new income is revenue-neutral. The policy makes this much easier for empires with many cities.

It's very complicated, and I'd like to find a way to summarize the end result in one sentence. Any ideas? Maybe...

"Reduces policy costs in empires with many cities. Cities producing approximately 15 are revenue neutral for policy rate."​

I think this might be the shortest we can get the explanation, while still providing actionable information...

 

[EmperorFool]

I agree the mechanics are difficult to imagine. IIRC the regular per-city rate is 35% which means that the actual increase for C cities over base is

C x 35%​

The policy reduces that second factor by 20% (additive) to

C x 15%​

If that's correct you could describe it as

Decreases the per-city policy cost increase by half.​

15% is close enough to one half of 35% that I think it's acceptable. Or change the policy effect to a 17.5% decrease to make it exactly one half.

The main problem with using a static culture number is that the additional cost increases as you acquire more policies. It may require 15 per city in the beginning to offset the cost, but it grows as the base cost increases. Having a Monument and Amphitheater isn't enough later in the game.

 

[Zaldron]

I agree the mechanics are difficult to imagine. IIRC the regular per-city rate is 35% which means that the actual increase for C cities over base is

C x 35%​

The policy reduces that second factor by 20% (additive) to

C x 15%​

If that's correct you could describe it as

Decreases the per-city policy cost increase by half.​

15% is close enough to one half of 35% that I think it's acceptable. Or change the policy effect to a 17.5% decrease to make it exactly one half.

The main problem with using a static culture number is that the additional cost increases as you acquire more policies. It may require 15 per city in the beginning to offset the cost, but it grows as the base cost increases. Having a Monument and Amphitheater isn't enough later in the game.

It's not additive. It's multiplicative. Normally each city is 25% extra and with the policy each city is 20% extra. Do you have an idea for how to clearly state that in a policy description?

 

[Ahriman]

Reduces policy costs in empires with many cities.

This would be fine.

Cities producing approximately 15 are revenue neutral for policy rate.

This isn't generally true.

 

[Toddy]

'Reduces the increase in policy costs when founding new cities'

Something like that?

 

[EmperorFool]

It's not additive. It's multiplicative.

According to Thal, it's additive. If the formulas in my post are correct, I consider it additive too.

• Multiplicative: Start with the base cost and multiply it by 1.25 for each city.
  
  100 base cost with 5 cities = 100 * 1.25 ^ 5 = 305.​
• Additive: Add 25% of the base cost for each city to the base cost.
  
  100 base cost with 5 cities = 100 + 0.25 * 100 * 5 = 225.​

Normally each city is 25% extra and with the policy each city is 20% extra.

How about "Reduces the per-city cost of acquiring policies by one fifth"? By using a fraction instead of a percent, it hopefully avoids the confusion between the 25% and 5%. If there were no other ways to affect this cost you could use "Reduces the per-city cost of acquiring policies to 20%."

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

'Reduces the increase in policy costs when founding new cities'

Something like that?

I like this.

 

[Zaldron]

According to Thal, it's additive. If the formulas in my post are correct, I consider it additive too.

I thought you were asking if the policy were additive, not the cost per city.

For example for three cities it would normally be 75% extra and with the policy it would be 60% extra. With four cities it would be 100% vs 80%

 

[EmperorFool]

For example for three cities it would normally be 75% extra and with the policy it would be 60% extra. With four cities it would be 100% vs 80%

Exactly. How about this?

Reduces the increase to policy costs of additional cities by one fifth.​

I want to include the numerical effect so the player can weigh it against other policies. Leaving it out is like saying "Provides culture for additional happiness."

 

[Toddy]

Exactly. How about this?

Reduces the increase to policy costs of additional cities by one fifth.​

I want to include the numerical effect so the player can weigh it against other policies. Leaving it out is like saying "Provides culture for additional happiness."

Is it still a fifth on different gamespeeds/worldsizes?

 

[Ahriman]

Is it still a fifth on different gamespeeds/worldsizes?

I believe so; AFAIK game speed changes the base culture requirements for a new policy, it doesn't change the per-city modifier.